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Dawn
8th July 2014, 07:44 PM
I'm new to this, so bear with me.

I ordered a kit for my full brother, started with the Y-DNA 12 marker test. After weeks of waiting, FtDNA pins me down to the Q Haplogroup, but decides they need to do further backbone testing. I'm all for accuracy so I wait 8 more weeks for it to finish.

Here's what they say is the final results:

Your Confirmed Haplogroup is Q-M3

Haplogroup Q1a3a1 is the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations. This haplogroup is defined by the presence of the M3 mutation...

Here is my problem -- no one on my paternal side is Native American. I'm the second generation born in the US on my dad's side. My grandfather was born in Germany, his father was born in the same town in Germany, and prior to that it was Austria.

I am not understanding this right? FtDNA specifically says

"Haplogroup Q1a3a1 is the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations."

I'm totally confused at this point. What should I do?

familylegend
8th July 2014, 09:14 PM
It sounds like your sample may have been switched with someone else's. See the following forum post about that very issue that happened in 2013. The customer wrote:
"It was very clear that neither the FF or mtDNA results were those of my relative. The FF results did not match known close relatives and matched an unknown person as parent/child! In addition the ethinicity was totally wrong. The mtDNA had exact Full Sequence matches with several individuals from a remote country. Since the tests did not fail and the results were from 2 differect batches, the only explanation I can think of is a sample mix up before tests were performed. FTDNA have admitted a 'lab error' and have sent a new test kit."

So mixups do happen on occasion. I'm no expert, but with your German background, it seems quite odd to be placed in the Q-Haplogroup. You might want to contact FTDNA and speak to a specialist about it.

lgmayka
8th July 2014, 09:45 PM
I am not understanding this right? FtDNA specifically says

"Haplogroup Q1a3a1 is the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations."

I'm totally confused at this point. What should I do?
First, a small correction to FTDNA's assertion: Q-M3 does occur in Siberia, at a low frequency (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v56/n8/full/jhg201164a.html).

There are several approaches you can take to solving this mystery.

1) You could check to see whether the 12 markers are compatible with the Q-M3 SNP result. If not, it is only the SNP result that's wrong. FTDNA runs a so-called backbone test in such cases, and that test has a higher error rate than others--some obvious backbone-test goofups are still "on the books" because no one has bothered to complain.

2) You could check your paper genealogy more carefully to see whether Native American patrilineage really is a possibility (e.g., through a poorly documented or undocumented adoption).

3) For customers who doubt their DNA results, FTDNA typically offers a kind of double-or-nothing gamble: You pay $50 to retest. If the result is different from the first time, FTDNA refunds your $50 (and presumably tracks down the root cause of the error); if the second result is identical to the first, FTDNA keeps the $50. If you do this, though, you will probably want FTDNA to use a new sample.

Dawn
8th July 2014, 10:06 PM
Thank you so much for your replies.

My dad and his twin brother are definitely not adopted, this I know for sure. I have my grandfather's death certificate, as well as his military records, and immigration records. He went back to Germany several times when he lived in the U.S., he was visiting family. All the rest of my paternal great aunts and cousins were in East Germany as well.

So it's definitely a matter of a mix-up, or they did something wrong.

Oddly enough, before I knew the result came in, Rebekah contacted me, asking me for the past 3 generations of lineage.

I will definitely call tomorrow to see what they suggest too.

Earl Davis
9th July 2014, 02:41 AM
Rebekah Canada and Roberta Estes are both very experienced in this area so it might discussing it with them.

The result could be correct as parent group Q is known in Europe.

EastAnglian
9th July 2014, 03:53 AM
Rebekah Canada and Roberta Estes are both very experienced in this area so it might discussing it with them.

The result could be correct as parent group Q is known in Europe.

that's very true,maybe it's the first result for M3 in Europe, the brother clade is found in Germany: ◦Q1a2a1a2 (L804): found in Germany, Scandinavia and Britain (possibly Hunnic)

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

T E Peterman
9th July 2014, 04:26 AM
My Eggleston family from Settrington in Yorkshire, England is also a member of the Q haplogroup. I understand that something like 1% of the English belong to the Q group. I surmise that since about 5% of Scandinavians belong to the Q haplogroup, this was probably brought to the Isles by the Vikings.

Timothy Peterman

T E Peterman
9th July 2014, 04:34 AM
The Eggleston family is now classed on ISOGG as Q1a2a1c1, which makes the terminal SNP L329* & L332*

All of the American Q1a2a1c1 Egglestons are descended from Bygod Eggleston, born in Settrington in 1587 & moved to Windsor, CT, where he died in 1674.

Timothy Peterman

1798
9th July 2014, 04:45 AM
I'm new to this, so bear with me.

I ordered a kit for my full brother, started with the Y-DNA 12 marker test. After weeks of waiting, FtDNA pins me down to the Q Haplogroup, but decides they need to do further backbone testing. I'm all for accuracy so I wait 8 more weeks for it to finish.

Here's what they say is the final results:

Your Confirmed Haplogroup is Q-M3

Haplogroup Q1a3a1 is the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations. This haplogroup is defined by the presence of the M3 mutation...

Here is my problem -- no one on my paternal side is Native American. I'm the second generation born in the US on my dad's side. My grandfather was born in Germany, his father was born in the same town in Germany, and prior to that it was Austria.

I am not understanding this right? FtDNA specifically says

"Haplogroup Q1a3a1 is the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations."

I'm totally confused at this point. What should I do?

Haplogroup Q is a brother of R so it is not unusual that it is found in Europeans also. I said it a long time ago that I thought that R and Q may have originated in Austria.

Dawn
9th July 2014, 04:23 PM
I'm on the phone with them now, on hold. She kept telling me it's because there was a non-paternal event like an adoption. I told her that's impossible because I have all the legal documents (death certificates, birth certificates, etc) that show the last 3 generations of genealogy.

She put me on hold.....will report back.

Dawn
9th July 2014, 04:37 PM
Okay so they did offer to re-run the test for $50, but I insisted on a new kit to make sure the DNA sample wasn't switched.

Hopefully I will get it cleared up. If we are the first Q-M3 in Europe, that would be kinda cool to change the "books" like that. I read an article in which Q-M3 was found in Asia, on old skeletal remains, I have to look that article up again I didn't bookmark it.

Armando
9th July 2014, 04:48 PM
You should also test with another company to compare results.

lgmayka
9th July 2014, 09:10 PM
Can you post your 12 markers, so that we can evaluate whether they appear to match a Q-M3 classification?

Dawn
9th July 2014, 10:39 PM
Thank you!

T E Peterman
10th July 2014, 06:54 AM
Does anyone have any evidence that haplogroup Q was in Austria, either in the recent past or the distant past? This suggestion sounds like an attempt to make all of haplogroup R originate on the Atlantic seaboard (ie Ireland & other places).

That is simply not a very parsimonious explanation. You have to consider the geographical distribution of haplougroups R1b, R1a, Q, P, S, T, K, N & O.

The mutations that produced R and Q probably occurred in a population that was living in Siberia or Turkestan; maybe even along the Pacific coast of Asia. All of these places are a lot more probable than Austria or anywhere else in Europe.

Timothy Peterman

Jim Barrett
10th July 2014, 07:17 AM
I'm on the phone with them now, on hold. She kept telling me it's because there was a non-paternal event like an adoption. I told her that's impossible because I have all the legal documents (death certificates, birth certificates, etc) that show the last 3 generations of genealogy.

She put me on hold.....will report back.

IMPOSSIBLE - you have to be kidding. The children of my deceased brother have his birth and death certificates PROVING that he and I have the same parents, but we all know he and his brother were adopted. My birth certificate was altered after having been issued to show I was my mother's third child. 1 was whited out and 3 put in its place.

Many events were not reported correctly. The wonderful thing about DNA is that it can disprove falsified paper trails

EastAnglian
10th July 2014, 07:28 AM
Haplogroup Q is a brother of R so it is not unusual that it is found in Europeans also. I said it a long time ago that I thought that R and Q may have originated in Austria.

Does anyone have any evidence that haplogroup Q was in Austria, either in the recent past or the distant past? This suggestion sounds like an attempt to make all of haplogroup R originate on the Atlantic seaboard (ie Ireland & other places).

That is simply not a very parsimonious explanation. You have to consider the geographical distribution of haplougroups R1b, R1a, Q, P, S, T, K, N & O.

The mutations that produced R and Q probably occurred in a population that was living in Siberia or Turkestan; maybe even along the Pacific coast of Asia. All of these places are a lot more probable than Austria or anywhere else in Europe.

Timothy Peterman

Yep, another piece of misleading info from 1798,he has trouble dealing with the late entry of R1b into Europe. This is very unhelpful for people who are new to the area of genetic genealogy.

1798
10th July 2014, 09:16 AM
Does anyone have any evidence that haplogroup Q was in Austria, either in the recent past or the distant past? This suggestion sounds like an attempt to make all of haplogroup R originate on the Atlantic seaboard (ie Ireland & other places).

That is simply not a very parsimonious explanation. You have to consider the geographical distribution of haplougroups R1b, R1a, Q, P, S, T, K, N & O.

The mutations that produced R and Q probably occurred in a population that was living in Siberia or Turkestan; maybe even along the Pacific coast of Asia. All of these places are a lot more probable than Austria or anywhere else in Europe.

Timothy Peterman

A few years ago I entered my haplotype and some Q haplotypes in the McGee utility to find out the TMRCA for our ancestors and a couple of Austrian Q types were showing the oldest as opposed to the NA types.
Eupedia states that R1b diversity is greatest in the German Austrian border.
R and Q are brothers so they could have originated close to each other. It doesn't fit with some peoples ideology but it is not about making it fit.

Dawn
10th July 2014, 09:23 AM
IMPOSSIBLE - you have to be kidding. The children of my deceased brother have his birth and death certificates PROVING that he and I have the same parents, but we all know he and his brother were adopted. My birth certificate was altered after having been issued to show I was my mother's third child. 1 was whited out and 3 put in its place.

Many events were not reported correctly. The wonderful thing about DNA is that it can disprove falsified paper trails

I have already ruled out adoption.
My great grandfather was Erich Von Richter, the Von Richter family lived all over Germany, and some of them lived in Austria. Erich Von Richter never came to the U.S., my grandfather did however, in 1923.
No native american ancestry on my paternal side.

Dawn
10th July 2014, 09:25 AM
Does anyone have any evidence that haplogroup Q was in Austria, either in the recent past or the distant past? This suggestion sounds like an attempt to make all of haplogroup R originate on the Atlantic seaboard (ie Ireland & other places).

That is simply not a very parsimonious explanation. You have to consider the geographical distribution of haplougroups R1b, R1a, Q, P, S, T, K, N & O.

The mutations that produced R and Q probably occurred in a population that was living in Siberia or Turkestan; maybe even along the Pacific coast of Asia. All of these places are a lot more probable than Austria or anywhere else in Europe.

Timothy Peterman

I am Haplogroup Q, and my paternal lineage is from Germany, and prior to that it was Austria.

EastAnglian
10th July 2014, 10:01 AM
I am Haplogroup Q, and my paternal lineage is from Germany, and prior to that it was Austria.

That doesn't mean the Haplogroup Q comes from there, given that the brother clade Q1a2a1a2(L804) is listed as Hunnic, M3 could have been brought to Europe with the Huns as well.

Dawn
10th July 2014, 10:07 AM
Can you post your 12 markers, so that we can evaluate whether they appear to match a Q-M3 classification?

I did post them but the jpg's are "pending approval." I will manually type them here:

DYS393 14
DYS390 24
DYS19 13
DYS391 10
DYS385 14-19
DYS426 12
DYS388 12
DYS439 12
DYS389I 13
DYS392 14
DYS389II 30

Dawn
10th July 2014, 10:10 AM
That doesn't mean the Haplogroup Q comes from there, given that the brother clade Q1a2a1a2(L804) is listed as Hunnic, M3 could have been brought to Europe with the Huns as well.

From what little I've studied I agree. Since this has happened, I have read of 2 other people, strictly European origin, who tested Native American ancestry. Both of those men also state there is no Native American lineage on their paternal side. One man says his lineage is German, another Poland. So I'm not alone it seems.

http://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/

prairielad
10th July 2014, 10:20 AM
From what little I've studied I agree. Since this has happened, I have read of 2 other people, strictly European origin, who tested as M3. Both of those men also state there is no Native American lineage on their paternal side. One man says his lineage is German, another Poland. So I'm not alone it seems.

What I would do, if retest confirms, is test a male cousin of this line if there is one, and see if I could find a direct male descendant of any of Grandfather's brothers lines to further validate (non Native American).

Dawn
10th July 2014, 10:43 AM
What I would do, if retest confirms, is test a male cousin of this line if there is one, and see if I could find a direct male descendant of any of Grandfather's brothers lines to further validate (non Native American).

I wish there was a male cousin. My grandfather was the only child. My grandfather had 2 twin sons and 2 daughters. My dad was one of the twin sons.

Maybe it's not right asking for a second recommendation for another genetics company, since I'm on the FtDNA site. But what company would anyone here recommend? I haven't heard good things about AncestryDNA, any other recommendations?

1798
10th July 2014, 11:16 AM
From what little I've studied I agree. Since this has happened, I have read of 2 other people, strictly European origin, who tested Native American ancestry. Both of those men also state there is no Native American lineage on their paternal side. One man says his lineage is German, another Poland. So I'm not alone it seems.

http://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/

"Q-M3 is present in some Siberian populations in Asia. It is unclear whether these are remnants of the founding lineage or evidence of back migrations from Beringia to East Asia."

jbarry6899
10th July 2014, 11:43 AM
National Geographic Geno 2.0 will give you a haplogroup, but the analysis is done by FTDNA's lab. 23andMe's autosomal test also includes limited haplogroup information. You can try Thomas Krahn's company YSeq.net. I didnt' see M3 on their product list but you may be able to order it under "Wish a SNP."

Jim

Ann Turner
10th July 2014, 12:16 PM
National Geographic Geno 2.0 will give you a haplogroup, but the analysis is done by FTDNA's lab. 23andMe's autosomal test also includes limited haplogroup information. You can try Thomas Krahn's company YSeq.net. I didnt' see M3 on their product list but you may be able to order it under "Wish a SNP."

Jim
23andMe does have the SNP for Q-M3 (rs3894).

Armando
10th July 2014, 01:32 PM
You should also test with another company to compare results.

But what company would anyone here recommend? I haven't heard good things about AncestryDNA, any other recommendations?

National Geographic Geno 2.0 will give you a haplogroup, but the analysis is done by FTDNA's lab. 23andMe's autosomal test also includes limited haplogroup information. You can try Thomas Krahn's company YSeq.net. I didnt' see M3 on their product list but you may be able to order it under "Wish a SNP."

Jim

23andMe does have the SNP for Q-M3 (rs3894).

With 23andme you also get autosomal results and a list of DNA relatives which could possibly be of help. You can also upload the results to Gedmatch once it's back up.

There are tools to convert Y-DNA results at 23andme to SNP names. See http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html and http://blog.kittycooper.com/2014/04/a-web-site-with-tools-for-y-and-other-dna-analysis/

If you test with Geno 2.0 you don't get a list of autosomal matches and you can't upload the autosomal results to Gedmatch. The fact that it's the same lab isn't an issue since mix-ups are very uncommon and I doubt a mix-up would happen again, if it did happen this time. Geno 2.0 is a good price for people that potentially have a lot of subtending SNPs that need to be tested, but Geno 2.0 does have a lot of subtending SNPs identified for the Q haplogroup. See the latest PDF at http://ytree.morleydna.com/experimental-phylogeny

Yseq.net is the cheapest and possibly fastest as long as he can make a primer quickly after wishing the SNP.

AncestryDNA would only give you autosomal results but sometimes that can also be helpful and it is never a bad idea to get second and third opinions with autosomal results. I say that in case you want to compare them with 23andme and/or Family Finder results in the future.

1798
10th July 2014, 02:40 PM
I'm new to this, so bear with me.

I ordered a kit for my full brother, started with the Y-DNA 12 marker test. After weeks of waiting, FtDNA pins me down to the Q Haplogroup, but decides they need to do further backbone testing. I'm all for accuracy so I wait 8 more weeks for it to finish.

Here's what they say is the final results:

Your Confirmed Haplogroup is Q-M3

Haplogroup Q1a3a1 is the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations. This haplogroup is defined by the presence of the M3 mutation...

Here is my problem -- no one on my paternal side is Native American. I'm the second generation born in the US on my dad's side. My grandfather was born in Germany, his father was born in the same town in Germany, and prior to that it was Austria.

I am not understanding this right? FtDNA specifically says

"Haplogroup Q1a3a1 is the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations."

I'm totally confused at this point. What should I do?
You should take this with a pinch of salt.YDNA tests results are not an exact science.

lgmayka
10th July 2014, 02:41 PM
DYS393 14
DYS390 24
DYS19 13
DYS391 10
DYS385 14-19
DYS426 12
DYS388 12
DYS439 12
DYS389I 13
DYS392 14
DYS389II 30
Yes, that does appear to be Q-M3. It is only 1 step away from this man from Alabama (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=YTJG9&p=0). (The differences at DYS389i and DYS389ii are actually a single mutation.)

MoberlyDrake
10th July 2014, 03:15 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that a person with American Indian ancestors settled in Germany or Austria at some point?

1798
10th July 2014, 03:20 PM
Has anyone considered the possibility that a person with American Indian ancestors settled in Germany or Austria at some point?

Has anyone considered the possibility that Q-M3 is 30,000 years old and not 15?

lgmayka
10th July 2014, 05:10 PM
It is only 1 step away from this man from Alabama (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=&viewuid=YTJG9&p=0).
The Alabama man has 37 markers on Ysearch, but his nearest neighbor at that level on Ysearch is a distance of 15 away.

Táltos
10th July 2014, 09:58 PM
You should take this with a pinch of salt.YDNA tests results are not an exact science.
@1798
Can you please knock it off, and leave this person's thread alone. Everyone should take what you say with a pinch of salt.

@Dawn,
Your father's Y DNA results are very interesting. And yes there have been other Europeans surprised by the Q-M3 result. Last year someone posted on this forum that they tested Q-M3 at Geno 2.0. They indicated that their paternal grandfather was from an isolated Basque village and did not immigrate to America until the 1900s. If I can find the link to that thread I will post it for you.

Dawn
10th July 2014, 10:03 PM
I do need to get this verified. I'm thinking of wild possibilities now. Like my grandmother having an affair which resulted in my dad and his twin brother being born. Or my great grandmother lied about who she got pregnant by and everyone believed her. Paternity testing did not exist back in 1914. The only thing I have going for me is that myself, my brother, my dad and his twin, and their 2 sisters, all have a rare blood type that is predominantly found in European/Caucasian people. The rare blood type is recessive, which means both parents have to contribute. My dad and his siblings all have the rare blood type, and my brother and I do too, and our cousins as well. But even then there is always a possibility that an Indian man had it too, even 1% makes it possible.

I do wonder if there are more Q-M3 in European populations, and I guess until more pop up (besides me and the 2 guys on that blog) the science will continue to assert that M3 is strictly Native American.

Dawn
10th July 2014, 10:05 PM
@1798
Can you please knock it off, and leave this person's thread alone. Everyone should take what you say with a pinch of salt.

@Dawn,
Your father's Y DNA results are very interesting. And yes there have been other Europeans surprised by the Q-M3 result. Last year someone posted on this forum that they tested Q-M3 at Geno 2.0. They indicated that their paternal grandfather was from an isolated Basque village and did not immigrate to America until the 1900s. If I can find the link to that thread I will post it for you.

Omg an isolated Basque village????

The rare blood type I just spoke of in the previous post --- that blood type is found in HUGE concentrated numbers no where else in the world other than the Basque population. I would love if you could find that thread, maybe I have a Basque connection.

Táltos
10th July 2014, 11:02 PM
Omg an isolated Basque village????

The rare blood type I just spoke of in the previous post --- that blood type is found in HUGE concentrated numbers no where else in the world other than the Basque population. I would love if you could find that thread, maybe I have a Basque connection.
Dawn,
Sorry it took me awhile. I decided to send you a pm with the link in it.

EDIT TO ADD-lgmayka gave you a lot of good information to review. Make sure you check it out. :-)

1798
11th July 2014, 12:29 AM
@1798
Can you please knock it off, and leave this person's thread alone. Everyone should take what you say with a pinch of salt.

@Dawn,
Your father's Y DNA results are very interesting. And yes there have been other Europeans surprised by the Q-M3 result. Last year someone posted on this forum that they tested Q-M3 at Geno 2.0. They indicated that their paternal grandfather was from an isolated Basque village and did not immigrate to America until the 1900s. If I can find the link to that thread I will post it for you.

@ Taltos
Tell the woman the truth and get of my back or else get a saddle.

Táltos
11th July 2014, 12:39 AM
@ Taltos
Tell the woman the truth and get of my back or else get a saddle.
@1798,
LOL, I don't ride donkeys!

1798
11th July 2014, 02:04 AM
@1798,
LOL, I don't ride donkeys!

Why when did you change?

Táltos
11th July 2014, 08:02 AM
@Dawn,
First I want to say I'm sorry to you that your thread has disintegrated into a three ring circus between 1798 and myself. Please keep us up to date with what you plan to do and what you are able to find it. You have a lot of posters here that are genuinely interested in your results and family history.

@1798,
Haha, enough of the sophomoric insults between the two of us and leave this alone already. Time and again you are in a back and forth with people in various threads. I think you just enjoy arguing. Anyway there was enough information from other posters in this thread to squash some of your theories.

I don't care if you think haplogroups Q and R originated on Mars already. Just don't tell someone who is new to genetic genealogy this:
You should take this with a pinch of salt.YDNA tests results are not an exact science.

Y DNA tests have so far proved to be the best DNA tests for genealogy. Okay I'm done now. I won't respond again no matter how much you insult me. Just think of the original poster, and this is her thread not ours.

1798
11th July 2014, 10:00 AM
@Dawn,
First I want to say I'm sorry to you that your thread has disintegrated into a three ring circus between 1798 and myself. Please keep us up to date with what you plan to do and what you are able to find it. You have a lot of posters here that are genuinely interested in your results and family history.

@1798,
Haha, enough of the sophomoric insults between the two of us and leave this alone already. Time and again you are in a back and forth with people in various threads. I think you just enjoy arguing. Anyway there was enough information from other posters in this thread to squash some of your theories.

I don't care if you think haplogroups Q and R originated on Mars already. Just don't tell someone who is new to genetic genealogy this:


Y DNA tests have so far proved to be the best DNA tests for genealogy. Okay I'm done now. I won't respond again no matter how much you insult me. Just think of the original poster, and this is her thread not ours.

Taltos
you had a go at me and I responded. I tried to tell the woman that everything about dna is not black and white. I don't see the big deal about Q-M3 being found outside of America.

Dawn
11th July 2014, 09:37 PM
I received an email from FtDNA today regarding this Q-M3 issue. Here is what it said:

I have conferred with a Q haplogroup expert and she would like to test the M3 SNP on the second vial we have here in storage, with your permission. This would be at no charge to you. If this comes back negative, we will rerun the Y-12 test on the second vial. If it is positive, then the haplogroup results are correct.

I have to say that I am surprisingly satisfied with their offer, and it was unexpected. They didn't have to offer this, since I told them I would pay $50 and submit a new sample. So they genuinely seem to be trying to rectify this situation. I'll allow them to do it, and also test with a second company. I'll keep everyone informed as the situation unfolds.

Aperipatetic1
11th July 2014, 09:51 PM
Couple clarification questions-

What is the most recent paternal AND MATERNAL ancestor, from a generational standpoint (no names needed) that was actually known to have been born in Europe and immigrated into the USA? Your father/mother, grandfather/granmother, great grandfather..etc?

What date did you paternal AND MATERNAL ancestor arrive in the USA?

Did your paternal / MATERNAL ancestor come to the USA before or after WW2 / allied occupation?

WHERE in the USA did you maternal and paternal ancestors migrate to and live? (For instance did they move to S.D. which could place them near mutiple indian reservations.)

You have basically three possibilities that I see which is a NPE in europe, which becomes fairly explainable if your maternal ancestor was in occupied germany/ poland/ /czechoslavakia etc.. circa 1945,

A NPE that occured in the USA near your families area of settlement in the USA,

or you are a legit rare bird with a unusual paternal Hg that could have been in place for a long, long time.

To begin discerning which is the case, more basic dates and info is needed.

1798
12th July 2014, 01:18 AM
I received an email from FtDNA today regarding this Q-M3 issue. Here is what it said:

I have conferred with a Q haplogroup expert and she would like to test the M3 SNP on the second vial we have here in storage, with your permission. This would be at no charge to you. If this comes back negative, we will rerun the Y-12 test on the second vial. If it is positive, then the haplogroup results are correct.

I have to say that I am surprisingly satisfied with their offer, and it was unexpected. They didn't have to offer this, since I told them I would pay $50 and submit a new sample. So they genuinely seem to be trying to rectify this situation. I'll allow them to do it, and also test with a second company. I'll keep everyone informed as the situation unfolds.

FTDNA has shown that it is a company run by a decent bunch of humans.

Dawn
12th July 2014, 10:25 PM
Couple clarification questions-

What is the most recent paternal AND MATERNAL ancestor, from a generational standpoint (no names needed) that was actually known to have been born in Europe and immigrated into the USA? Your father/mother, grandfather/granmother, great grandfather..etc?

My DNA results were for Y-DNA - so my paternal lineage is what they asked for. My most recent paternal ancestor that was known to have been born in Germany is my grandfather. He was born in 1914. His mother (my great grandmother) was also born in Germany, in the same town, in 1889. His father (my great grandfather) was either born in Germany or in Austria, I'm not sure yet.

What date did you paternal AND MATERNAL ancestor arrive in the USA?

My paternal ancestor arrived in the U.S. in 1923, this was before the WW2/allied occupation.

WHERE in the USA did you maternal and paternal ancestors migrate to and live? (For instance did they move to S.D. which could place them near mutiple indian reservations.)

My grandfather came to the U.S. in 1923. He lived in Staten Island, NY his whole life. He met my grandmother in Staten Island as well.

You have basically three possibilities that I see which is a NPE in europe, which becomes fairly explainable if your maternal ancestor was in occupied germany/ poland/ /czechoslavakia etc.. circa 1945,

A NPE that occured in the USA near your families area of settlement in the USA,

or you are a legit rare bird with a unusual paternal Hg that could have been in place for a long, long time.

To begin discerning which is the case, more basic dates and info is needed.

True, I know there are only a few other people that I'm aware of that claim European origin, namely the one on this forum that hasn't posted for a year. At the very least the designation of Q-M3 as strictly Native American may have to be changed.

Táltos
13th July 2014, 12:16 AM
I don't see the big deal about Q-M3 being found outside of America.
Sure, Siberia it is found at low frequency like lgmayka posted earlier in this thread.

@Dawn,
That's great that FTDNA offered to retest the second vial for free.

Now here is another Q-M3 that lists Germany. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/default.aspx?section=yresults Scroll down to the Q1a section. Not sure if this is the person from the Roberta Estes link that you have.

thetick
13th July 2014, 12:20 AM
You should take this with a pinch of salt.YDNA tests results are not an exact science.

Just completely wrong. YDNA tests results are an exact science. As with any sample, problems can be introduced by human error via mixing up samples, poor deciphering or generalizations made with a small number of samples.

I think it's pretty clear based on several other reports that there are Q3 Europeans. The origin is anybody's guess but the Huns would certainly be a plausible origin.

R and Q being recent brothers is complete nonsense as are most of 1798's comments. Q is predicted to have an origin 17,000 to 22,000 years ago.

1798
13th July 2014, 01:25 AM
Just completely wrong. YDNA tests results are an exact science. As with any sample, problems can be introduced by human error via mixing up samples, poor deciphering or generalizations made with a small number of samples.

I think it's pretty clear based on several other reports that there are Q3 Europeans. The origin is anybody's guess but the Huns would certainly be a plausible origin.

R and Q being recent brothers is complete nonsense as are most of 1798's comments. Q is predicted to have an origin 17,000 to 22,000 years ago.

There are brothers and son's and father's who don't have the same haplotypes so how are YDNA tests an exact science?
R and Q are descendants of P which makes them brothers.I did not say anything about recent.
If Dawn looks at the parent groups Q and Q1 at ysearch she will see lots of them in Europe so her ancestor is not an NPE.

lgmayka
13th July 2014, 07:07 AM
Now here is another Q-M3 that lists Germany. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/default.aspx?section=yresults Scroll down to the Q1a section. Not sure if this is the person from the Roberta Estes link that you have.
Estes' German case is Q-CTS1780 (http://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/). I think you are looking at Dawn's own entry.

Armando
13th July 2014, 08:04 AM
From what little I've studied I agree. Since this has happened, I have read of 2 other people, strictly European origin, who tested Native American ancestry. Both of those men also state there is no Native American lineage on their paternal side. One man says his lineage is German, another Poland. So I'm not alone it seems.

http://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/

I do need to get this verified. I'm thinking of wild possibilities now. Like my grandmother having an affair which resulted in my dad and his twin brother being born. Or my great grandmother lied about who she got pregnant by and everyone believed her. Paternity testing did not exist back in 1914. The only thing I have going for me is that myself, my brother, my dad and his twin, and their 2 sisters, all have a rare blood type that is predominantly found in European/Caucasian people. The rare blood type is recessive, which means both parents have to contribute. My dad and his siblings all have the rare blood type, and my brother and I do too, and our cousins as well. But even then there is always a possibility that an Indian man had it too, even 1% makes it possible.

I do wonder if there are more Q-M3 in European populations, and I guess until more pop up (besides me and the 2 guys on that blog) the science will continue to assert that M3 is strictly Native American.

Those two men are not Q-M3. They are Q-CTS1780 as Igmayka just pointed out. Q-CTS1780 is parallel to CTS11969, CTS11970 which is above Q-M3. http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpQ.html

This can also be seen in your FTDNA haploptree and SNP page. Also see Roberta's screenshot. https://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/ftdna-2014-q-tree.png

The Eupedia Q page needs to be updated. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

My DNA results were for Y-DNA - so my paternal lineage is what they asked for. My most recent paternal ancestor that was known to have been born in Germany is my grandfather. He was born in 1914. His mother (my great grandmother) was also born in Germany, in the same town, in 1889. His father (my great grandfather) was either born in Germany or in Austria, I'm not sure yet.



My paternal ancestor arrived in the U.S. in 1923, this was before the WW2/allied occupation.



My grandfather came to the U.S. in 1923. He lived in Staten Island, NY his whole life. He met my grandmother in Staten Island as well.



True, I know there are only a few other people that I'm aware of that claim European origin, namely the one on this forum that hasn't posted for a year. At the very least the designation of Q-M3 as strictly Native American may have to be changed.

I agree that Q-M3 as strictly Native American might have to be changed which is why your case is so interesting. A BigY test by your brother, or father, might be very valuable to the community.

The response by Robert Estes to you on her blog was great. I think Rebekah should not have asserted an NPE but rather should have offered that as a hypothesis.

Sure, Siberia it is found at low frequency like lgmayka posted earlier in this thread.

@Dawn,
That's great that FTDNA offered to retest the second vial for free.

Now here is another Q-M3 that lists Germany. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ashinaroyaldynasty/default.aspx?section=yresults Scroll down to the Q1a section. Not sure if this is the person from the Roberta Estes link that you have.

That was an interesting find Táltos.

Estes' German case is Q-CTS1780 (http://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/). I think you are looking at Dawn's own entry.

Dawn is the one that was confused. You can see that from what I quoted by her.

Armando
13th July 2014, 08:49 AM
There are brothers and son's and father's who don't have the same haplotypes so how are YDNA tests an exact science?


Brothers, sons, and fathers can have different STR markers and when they are the difference is minimal. Sons can also have an additional SNP that the father did not have but they don't lose the SNP their father had. In that sense Y-DNA tests are an exact science.

R and Q are descendants of P which makes them brothers.I did not say anything about recent.

R and Q are not literally brothers. The term brother is an analogy to help people understand the genetic tree. It can take 3 to 5 generations for a new SNP to appear and even then it might not be detectable, though a downstream SNP will be detectable at some point.

If Dawn looks at the parent groups Q and Q1 at ysearch she will see lots of them in Europe so her ancestor is not an NPE.

Yes, but FTDNA said that her brother has been confirmed to be Q-M3 which is an SNP that has been stated to be "the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations" Q and Q1 are irrelevant in here specific case. Q-M3 is what needs to be proven to also exist in Germany. Geneticists also need to identify more SNP markers since there should be many more that separate Asians and Native Americans since there was a 5,000 to 15,000 year divide.

Even if her brother had a known European SNP it still wouldn't prove there was not an NPE. If a man that is U106 is married and his wife has an affair with another man that happens to also be U106 and the woman becomes pregnant from the affair and has a son then the child will also be U106.

1798
13th July 2014, 09:06 AM
The age of Q-M3 is relevant to all of this.

Armando
13th July 2014, 09:38 AM
The age of Q-M3 is relevant to all of this.

We already knew it was possible for Q-M3 to have appeared prior to Siberians crossing the Bering Strait and we already know that Q first appeared in Asia. That does not prove anything about Dawn's case. Finding more SNP markers between Asian Q-M3, Native Americans Q-M3, and possible European Q-M3 will prove a lot. That is what the BigY and FullGenomes tests are for. This is also why we need to continue to try and get more people from all over the world to test and to continue to get SNP tests when new ones are discovered. With more people testing the easier it will be to find the exceptions to the rule.

Dawn
13th July 2014, 10:23 AM
Estes' German case is Q-CTS1780. I think you are looking at Dawn's own entry.

Okay I see where I made an error in grouping myself in with the other people who tested, thank you for that because I totally missed it.

My brother is kit 333264, and I'm managing the kit, so that's me that appears in the Ashina group. I joined it when I was confirmed as Haplogroup Q.

From what I understand, the Q-M3 was only found in Siberia in ancient remains, not in anyone living. Is this true?

Dawn
13th July 2014, 10:25 AM
And I would love to get the Big Y testing done, but it's something that costs money that I don't have to spend right now. Maybe I'll just upgrade in steps and eventually have it all done. Either way I'm getting all the full Y testing eventually.

Táltos
13th July 2014, 10:47 AM
My brother is kit 333264, and I'm managing the kit, so that's me that appears in the Ashina group. I joined it when I was confirmed as Haplogroup Q.


Thanks for the clarification. When I first saw that I did think that might be your brother's kit. I wasn't completely sure that you joined his kit to many projects yet because of the uncertainty that you feel to the result.

Here is a link that you might find useful. http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A104.pdf

Dawn
13th July 2014, 12:06 PM
Thanks for the clarification. When I first saw that I did think that might be your brother's kit. I wasn't completely sure that you joined his kit to many projects yet because of the uncertainty that you feel to the result.

Here is a link that you might find useful. http://comonca.org.cn/lh/doc/A104.pdf

The only thing I'm certain of, at this point, is that I'm Haplogroup Q. I trust that FtDNA didn't get that part wrong, but you never know without the re-testing on the second vial.

1798
13th July 2014, 01:38 PM
Even if her brother had a known European SNP it still wouldn't prove there was not an NPE. If a man that is U106 is married and his wife has an affair with another man that happens to also be U106 and the woman becomes pregnant from the affair and has a son then the child will also be U106.

I don't know why you did not use your subclade L21 as a reference! I think that when there are lots of the same branch living in the same area like L21 then there is a greater possibility of a SNP. If one has a rare type like Q1a3a then there may be an other reason.

lgmayka
13th July 2014, 04:56 PM
From what I understand, the Q-M3 was only found in Siberia in ancient remains, not in anyone living. Is this true?
Not true. Q-M3 has been found in Siberians living today (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v56/n8/full/jhg201164a.html).
---
To investigate the structure of Y chromosome haplogroups R-M207 and Q-M242 in human populations of North Asia, we have performed high-resolution genotyping using both single nucleotide polymorphisms and short tandem repeat (STR)-based approaches of 121 M207- and M242-derived samples from 885 males of 16 ethnic groups of Siberia and East Asia. As a result, the following Y chromosome haplogroups were revealed: R1b1b1-M73 (2.0%), R1b1b2-M269 (0.7%), R2-M124 (1.1%), Q1a*-MEH2 (0.5%), Q1a2-M25 (0.1%), Q1a3*-M346 (9.2%) and Q1a3a-M3 (0.2%).
---

thetick
13th July 2014, 06:35 PM
There are brothers and son's and father's who don't have the same haplotypes so how are YDNA tests an exact science?

Just because human error occurs, see examples I listed, does not make the science inexact. The science is exact, but human error is not.

What you saying is absurd?
So because you can't see that a star is a sun then astronomy is an inexact science?


R and Q are descendants of P which makes them brothers.I did not say anything about recent.

Fair enough but that would imply every person on this planet is a brother if we go back far enough. Personally I would never refer to a brother being tens of thousands of years old. Regardless your statement is very confusing to anyone.


If Dawn looks at the parent groups Q and Q1 at ysearch she will see lots of them in Europe so her ancestor is not an NPE.

It's been established there are Q3 Europeans, but she still could have NPE. An NPE is probably unlikely but certainly not ruled out.

Armando
13th July 2014, 07:02 PM
It's been established there are Q3 Europeans......

So far the only two Q-M3 (formerly known as Q3) are Dawn and AI_77. http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=33076

All other Q-M3 has been found in Siberia or America (North, Central, and South).

There are no other reports anywhere of Q-M3 being found in Europeans.

thetick
13th July 2014, 08:05 PM
So far the only two Q-M3 (formerly known as Q3) are Dawn and AI_77. http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=33076

All other Q-M3 has been found in Siberia or America (North, Central, and South).

There are no other reports anywhere of Q-M3 being found in Europeans.

It would be very interesting to find the closest GD to Dawn and AI_77 from Q-M3 Haplogroup Project -- https://www.familytreedna.com/public/amerind%20y/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

The results might shed some light if Dawn and AI_77 are a European Q-M3 group or if there is an unknown NPE in those paternal lines.

Dawn
13th July 2014, 11:10 PM
My dad, my grandfather, and myself all have green eyes, a rare eye color. We all look like each other, but I understand that doesn't mean much.
Rebekah mentioned natives being brought to Europe as slaves after 1492, and a npe happening that way -- that being one possibility. I'm questioning my grandfathers true paternity at this point.
Although the German government gave my grandfather a document saying that he is legally recognized as the son of Eric Von Richter of Germany. They did that because my grandfathers parents were not married when she got pregnant.
Either way I just wanna know the truth. My great grandmother dude years ago, I'm going to call my aunt and ask her if she ever heard rumors of an affair or anything connected with native Americans.
Family finder sounds like the next best thing, besides big Y testing.

1798
14th July 2014, 01:45 AM
My dad, my grandfather, and myself all have green eyes, a rare eye color. We all look like each other, but I understand that doesn't mean much.
Rebekah mentioned natives being brought to Europe as slaves after 1492, and a npe happening that way -- that being one possibility. I'm questioning my grandfathers true paternity at this point.
Although the German government gave my grandfather a document saying that he is legally recognized as the son of Eric Von Richter of Germany. They did that because my grandfathers parents were not married when she got pregnant.
Either way I just wanna know the truth. My great grandmother dude years ago, I'm going to call my aunt and ask her if she ever heard rumors of an affair or anything connected with native Americans.
Family finder sounds like the next best thing, besides big Y testing.

The family finder test is the way to go and it is a great test for the money. If you have German autosomal dna then you will know the truth. A man can't take his YDNA to a new region and leave his autosomal dna behind him.

1798
14th July 2014, 05:14 AM
Not true. Q-M3 has been found in Siberians living today (http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v56/n8/full/jhg201164a.html).
---
To investigate the structure of Y chromosome haplogroups R-M207 and Q-M242 in human populations of North Asia, we have performed high-resolution genotyping using both single nucleotide polymorphisms and short tandem repeat (STR)-based approaches of 121 M207- and M242-derived samples from 885 males of 16 ethnic groups of Siberia and East Asia. As a result, the following Y chromosome haplogroups were revealed: R1b1b1-M73 (2.0%), R1b1b2-M269 (0.7%), R2-M124 (1.1%), Q1a*-MEH2 (0.5%), Q1a2-M25 (0.1%), Q1a3*-M346 (9.2%) and Q1a3a-M3 (0.2%).
---

I counted the number of SNPs from M207 to the present that are in FTDNAs R Y-tree. I added on the average 36 from U106 Big-Y results and I get 169X150 which would give a TMRCA of 25,350 for M207. I know that it is only a rough estimate but M242 should be around the same age. I cannot see Q1a3a on the Q-tree. Where does it fit in? It should be around the 15,000 year mark. That is the time that the ancestors of the NA crossed the Bering Strait.

Armando
14th July 2014, 08:15 AM
My dad, my grandfather, and myself all have green eyes, a rare eye color. We all look like each other, but I understand that doesn't mean much.
Rebekah mentioned natives being brought to Europe as slaves after 1492, and a npe happening that way -- that being one possibility. I'm questioning my grandfathers true paternity at this point.
Although the German government gave my grandfather a document saying that he is legally recognized as the son of Eric Von Richter of Germany. They did that because my grandfathers parents were not married when she got pregnant.
Either way I just wanna know the truth. My great grandmother dude years ago, I'm going to call my aunt and ask her if she ever heard rumors of an affair or anything connected with native Americans.
Family finder sounds like the next best thing, besides big Y testing.

Family Finder could help but it has it's limitations.

One way Family Finder, or any other autosomal test, could be helpful is if it were to show an unexpected amount of Native American or Asian ancestry after running the results through Dodecad globe13 or Eurogenes K13 or K36. MyOrigins has Native American ancestry divided up into Northeast Asian, Native American, and Siberian so the results can be misleading if that isn't already understood. We would already expect your brother to get European results from your mother's ancestors and your paternal grandmother's ancestors regardless of where your paternal grandfather is from. Am I correct in my assumption that your mother and paternal grandmother are mainly of European ancestry?

Lack of Native American results in the Family Finder test won't prove that there wasn't an NPE since people can have a distant ancestor in the paternal line that was Native American and therefore have Q-M3 in as their Y-DNA but have 100% European autosomal DNA. The Native American DNA can be wiped out in as few as 6 or 7 generations of each descendant marrying people with 100% European ancestry. So if the NPE was due to a man that fits that situation then your brother would not have Native American in his results, unless your mother and paternal grandmother have that ancestry.

For the list of matches from Family Finder to be of help your brother would need a close match from Germany to prove a connection or a close match with someone unexpected that isn't related through your mother or paternal grandmother to assume an NPE.

If you have your aunt and your brother tested and they have a lower amount of shared DNA than expected then your father and his twin could be half-siblings of your aunt. Your aunt would also be more likely to be able to find a close match to someone from Germany than your brother would since she would have more of your grandfather's DNA than your brother. Having your aunt tested would also rule out matches from your mother's side of the family and leave you with only matches from your paternal grandparents.

Does your brother have any Y-DNA matches? I never asked that before since you doubted an NPE. Now that you are questioning your grandfather's true paternity it is a relevant question.

1798
14th July 2014, 11:00 AM
I counted the number of SNPs from M207 to the present that are in FTDNAs R Y-tree. I added on the average 36 from U106 Big-Y results and I get 169X150 which would give a TMRCA of 25,350 for M207. I know that it is only a rough estimate but M242 should be around the same age. I cannot see Q1a3a on the Q-tree. Where does it fit in? It should be around the 15,000 year mark. That is the time that the ancestors of the NA crossed the Bering Strait.

I counted the SNPs downstream from M242 to M3 and I get a TMRCA of 19,200 for M3 which is well before the Bering Strait crossing.

Aperipatetic1
14th July 2014, 04:05 PM
FTDNA has shown that it is a company run by a decent bunch of humans.

Question -
I am not sure if I am understanding this correctly or not,.. but what the OP needs at this point is a SNP test. What is the point of running a 12 marker Y test over again?

While its true that this would confirm if her original STR markers are correct, it would do absolutely nothing to confirm what clade of Hg Q her paternal ancestor was a member of, IF it turns out that the markers she was given are from her sample.

Is the lab or company attempting to place users in the deepest clade by looking at their STR markers, or are they actually SNP testing? (which is the only way you are going to be able make a valid call on what sub-clade some people fall into).

If they are only inferring Q sub clade based off of the STR markers, then I would not recommend that to the OP as a solid basis to make any sort of call. You can have a common AMH STR marker set for R1b, for instance, and have it fall into one of multiple sub-clades of R1b, with no certain way to attribute a sample to any of them without SNP testing. The same is likely to apply to other Hg as well.

Making calls from STR marker comparison has been wrong as applies to subclades within a Hg, and is a fairly 'last-decade' method that can be casually useful sometimes, but is not foolproof or certain.

The STR testing is only useful for straight comparison of paternal line-only samples to one another. Its not a valid basis to offer anyone a confirmed or positive assignment to a specific clade without SNP confirmation, in my opinion.

Maybe I am misunderstanding how they arrived at her initial Y-clade attribution.

Aperipatetic1
14th July 2014, 04:44 PM
My DNA results were for Y-DNA - so my paternal lineage is what they asked for. My most recent paternal ancestor that was known to have been born in Germany is my grandfather. He was born in 1914. His mother (my great grandmother) was also born in Germany, in the same town, in 1889. His father (my great grandfather) was either born in Germany or in Austria, I'm not sure yet.



My paternal ancestor arrived in the U.S. in 1923, this was before the WW2/allied occupation. My grandfather came to the U.S. in 1923. He lived in Staten Island, NY his whole life. He met my grandmother in Staten Island as well.



True, I know there are only a few other people that I'm aware of that claim European origin, namely the one on this forum that hasn't posted for a year. At the very least the designation of Q-M3 as strictly Native American may have to be changed.

I would ask what method they are using to attribute your deepest Y clade. Is it being attributed through SNP testing for M3, or is someone looking only at your STR markers and comparing them to known M3 STR markers and suggesting that the odds make it likely your sample is also M3 derived. If the later is the case, I would disregard the 'M3' assignment totally, at least until SNP testing is done. I really don't know what is the method used by this company, or in your case, but its worth asking them.

Second, what generation did you actually obtain the test sample from? Is it from your European-born grandfather, or a USA-born father/uncle/brother?

Third, to diagnose where the possible NPE might have originated you need to examine when your MATERNAL line ancestry arrived in the USA, from where and what year, even though that would not normally be a issue in a Y-STR test. In this case, since we apparently know she is biologically related to your paternal ancestor, can she be placed in a locality that might offer some explanation? While she did not supply the Y-STR genetic material, it could be informative if she was in a environment or locality at a time when males with that Hg/STR marker set had a presence.

If your USA born father is the donor for the sample FTDNA used, and his USA born wife has been on Staten Island for several generations until your fathers birth, then you probably would have to test a european paternal cousin. If the FTDNA sample is donated by your USA born brother, then you would want to test a male cousin, or your father for comparison to see if they match.

Austria-Hungary in particular was very diverse, and its urban areas were destinations for a lot of people from all over Europe and Western Asia during the 20th century.

Although its purely ancedotal, if you read Dostoyevsky his Russian elites and nobles are constantly travelling to Vienna and Zurich, and Dostoyevsky himself traveled to Vienna. Hg Q or Hg N would probably be present in Northern or Uralic Russian populations.

Armando
14th July 2014, 06:03 PM
I would ask what method they are using to attribute your deepest Y clade. Is it being attributed through SNP testing for M3, or is someone looking only at your STR markers and comparing them to known M3 STR markers and suggesting that the odds make it likely your sample is also M3 derived. If the later is the case, I would disregard the 'M3' assignment totally, at least until SNP testing is done. I really don't know what is the method used by this company, or in your case, but its worth asking them.

FTDNA does a Y-HAP-Backbone SNP test for Q-M3in order to verify that they are positive for that marker. It is not inferred based on STR markers.

Second, what generation did you actually obtain the test sample from? Is it from your European-born grandfather, or a USA-born father/uncle/brother?

She already stated in her original post that it was her brother.

Third, to diagnose where the possible NPE might have originated you need to examine when your MATERNAL line ancestry arrived in the USA, from where and what year, even though that would not normally be a issue in a Y-STR test. In this case, since we apparently know she is biologically related to your paternal ancestor, can she be placed in a locality that might offer some explanation? While she did not supply the Y-STR genetic material, it could be informative if she was in a environment or locality at a time when males with that Hg/STR marker set had a presence.

If your USA born father is the donor for the sample FTDNA used, and his USA born wife has been on Staten Island for several generations until your fathers birth, then you probably would have to test a European paternal cousin. If the FTDNA sample is donated by your USA born brother, then you would want to test a male cousin, or your father for comparison to see if they match.

She has already stated that her grandfather was the one that was born in Germany and that he does not have any cousins. I assume from her posts that testing her father is not an option and her grandfather is deceased. Her father had a twin brother and even if he had children the fact that he was a twin would mean the child should be the same. If she gets a Family Finder test for her and her brother and they show to be half-siblings then she can assume an NPE with her brother.

Armando
14th July 2014, 06:39 PM
This is what the Haplotree page looks like after the backbone SNP test.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7n8zsijfhr50hm2/Q-M3%20after%20Backbone%20test.PNG

Notice it states "Your Confirmed Haplogroup is Q-M3" and it is in green which means tested positive.

Aperipatetic1
15th July 2014, 02:12 PM
FTDNA does a Y-HAP-Backbone SNP test for Q-M3in order to verify that they are positive for that marker. It is not inferred based on STR markers.



She already stated in her original post that it was her brother.



She has already stated that her grandfather was the one that was born in Germany and that he does not have any cousins. I assume from her posts that testing her father is not an option and her grandfather is deceased. Her father had a twin brother and even if he had children the fact that he was a twin would mean the child should be the same. If she gets a Family Finder test for her and her brother and they show to be half-siblings then she can assume an NPE with her brother.

Thank you for the information and correction. I should have read the original postings more thoroughly. Best of luck.

Alexandrina
15th July 2014, 11:14 PM
[I]Your Confirmed Haplogroup is Q-M3

Haplogroup Q1a3a1 is the only lineage strictly associated with native American populations. ...

Here is my problem -- no one on my paternal side is Native American. I'm the second generation born in the US on my dad's side. My grandfather was born in Germany, his father was born in the same town in Germany, and prior to that it was Austria. ....
.
I'm totally confused at this point. What should I do?

Dawn,

You have lot of steps now to undertake in order to prove or disprove your paternal Haplotype and sub group.

1. Firstly; don't rely on the original sample being re-tested as a priority. If this vial were mixed up (also the accompanying 2nd back-up vial from the same batch) then you would merely be re-testing a suspect sample. This scenario is unlikely , yet still possible and definitely needs to be ruled out prior to any further analysis.

2. Take advice already posted regarding Family Finder autosomal DNA testing at $99 (WITH A NEW SAMPLE) for your brother and another for yourself if affordable. These results will at least give you some determination re close matches which can be compared in chromosome browser and in common with functions to separate the lines. If you BOTH have family finder test then you will have many more options which can then be analysed further within FTDNA FF software as well as Gedmatch and other 3rd Party tools

3. You should order a completely NEW kit for him (DO NOT UPGRADE FROM WITHIN HIS PROFILE) and instead of ordering a new y12 , order y37 instead, along with Family Finder if affordable. Advise the liaison staff at FTDNA that you will be doing this and if the result returns as NOT Q3 will they refund the original cost of Y12 etc. You must eliminate a mix-up in batching from the equation therefore a completely new sample is the best way of proceeding with confidence.

4. An NPE cannot be ruled out; this would generally be the basis for further discussion in any situation whereby Q3 paternal Haplogroup is present in a European (German) ylineage. Your grandfather arriving at NY after WW1 during 1923 point to European not native American ancestry however there are TWO births in USA where any NPE could occur; of course this must be considered and eliminated. Babies were sometimes mixed up in hospitals, as an extreme example.

5. a) Birth in USA -NY ? of your Father and Uncle.
b) Birth in USA of your Brother.

6. Hold off with any further advanced SNP testing until the steps above have been completed. Proceed slowly step by step until you have some autosomal results to guide you, along with confirmation of indicated Haplogroup via the brand new yDNA y37 test. You will receive a new Kit number for the new sample.

7. Very important. Do NOT upgrade the old sample; it must be bypassed completely. No use building up upon what might be a flawed sample. (unlikely, yet must be considered and eliminated)

8. Your mention of a pre-marital pregnancy for your great grandmother in Germany also rings alarm bells. As you know Russia & Germany were at War during the period under discussion. Many Siberians were in the Russian Army. Q3 also associated with Siberia? Rape was common re invasion forces during those dark times. You could produce a timeline in order to determine exact possibilities from that point forward. Not sure when Grandpa was born so you can eliminate possibilities.

Good Luck.
Alexandrina.

1798
16th July 2014, 02:32 AM
Q-M3 being born before the Bering Strait crossing would be the reason that some descendants are found in Europe. Has any NA taken the Big-Y test?

lgmayka
16th July 2014, 08:43 AM
Has any NA taken the Big-Y test?
Yes, they are listed in this blog entry (http://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/).

Sarmat
16th July 2014, 09:24 AM
My dad, my grandfather, and myself all have green eyes, a rare eye color.

What about your brother? The sample for this kit came from him, correct?

Forgive me for asking, but do you think it's possible that your father may not be your brother's father?

Sarmat
16th July 2014, 09:30 AM
Dawn,

You have lot of steps now to undertake in order to prove or disprove your paternal Haplotype and sub group.

1. Firstly; don't rely on the original sample being re-tested as a priority. If this vial were mixed up (also the accompanying 2nd back-up vial from the same batch) then you would merely be re-testing a suspect sample. This scenario is unlikely , yet still possible and definitely needs to be ruled out prior to any further analysis.

2. Take advice already posted regarding Family Finder autosomal DNA testing at $99 (WITH A NEW SAMPLE) for your brother and another for yourself if affordable. These results will at least give you some determination re close matches which can be compared in chromosome browser and in common with functions to separate the lines. If you BOTH have family finder test then you will have many more options which can then be analysed further within FTDNA FF software as well as Gedmatch and other 3rd Party tools

3. You should order a completely NEW kit for him (DO NOT UPGRADE FROM WITHIN HIS PROFILE) and instead of ordering a new y12 , order y37 instead, along with Family Finder if affordable. Advise the liaison staff at FTDNA that you will be doing this and if the result returns as NOT Q3 will they refund the original cost of Y12 etc. You must eliminate a mix-up in batching from the equation therefore a completely new sample is the best way of proceeding with confidence.



It would be easier, cheaper, and probably more informative to just order 23andme kits for yourself and your brother.

Armando
16th July 2014, 09:48 AM
I'm wondering why questions and suggestions that have been brought up before keep being brought up. Sometimes it's by people that are on the forum a lot.

1798
16th July 2014, 11:47 AM
Yes, they are listed in this blog entry (http://dna-explained.com/2014/06/25/big-y-dna-results-divide-and-unite-haplogroup-q-native-americans/).

Thanks. L568 is mentioned in this blog and I get a TMRCA of around 18,000 counting SNPs down from M242 allowing a TMRCA of 25,000 for M242.

Dawn
16th July 2014, 03:32 PM
...I assume from her posts that testing her father is not an option and her grandfather is deceased. Her father had a twin brother and even if he had children the fact that he was a twin would mean the child should be the same. If she gets a Family Finder test for her and her brother and they show to be half-siblings then she can assume an NPE with her brother.

My father is living, there is no question he is my father and my brother's father. My brother and I look just like him and his side of the family.

My great grandmother worked for the Von Richter family in Germany. That's where she met Eric Von Richter. She got pregnant by him and they weren't married, so that was a big issue back in 1914. I have never questioned my great grandmother's story until the DNA result. I still doubt the NPE, but I'm open to it, since I have to be.

1798
16th July 2014, 04:05 PM
I still doubt the NPE, but I'm open to it, since I have to be.

Why do you have to be? Q-M3 is found in most NA but I don't remember anyone saying that it can't be found outside of America.

MMaddi
16th July 2014, 05:34 PM
Why do you have to be? Q-M3 is found in most NA but I don't remember anyone saying that it can't be found outside of America.

The issue of NPE is not necessarily related to having German ancestry and that Q3 is rare in Germany.

I believe the original poster has stated that two generations of men have been born in the U.S. since her German immigrant ancestor arrived - she can correct me if I'm wrong. If there is an NPE, it could have occurred in one of the generations since the paternal line has been in the U.S. And if there is an NPE that occurred in the U.S., there is the possibility that the birth father involved may have Native American ancestry.

I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but it has to be considered as a possibility. I also agree with the poster who suggested that the original poster and her brother test at 23andMe. That would confirm or refute the yDNA haplogroup at FTDNA and it would also establish whether they are full or half siblings, dealing with the question of NPE, at least in the case of her brother.

Dawn
16th July 2014, 06:27 PM
Thank you for your advice. My grandfather was born in 1914, I should research more what was going on in that time. My brother and I look like my father. If there was an npe anywhere the only possibility would be with my grandfather. The Siberia connection makes more sense than the Native American connection.

[/B][/I]

Dawn,

You have lot of steps now to undertake in order to prove or disprove your paternal Haplotype and sub group.

1. Firstly; don't rely on the original sample being re-tested as a priority. If this vial were mixed up (also the accompanying 2nd back-up vial from the same batch) then you would merely be re-testing a suspect sample. This scenario is unlikely , yet still possible and definitely needs to be ruled out prior to any further analysis.

2. Take advice already posted regarding Family Finder autosomal DNA testing at $99 (WITH A NEW SAMPLE) for your brother and another for yourself if affordable. These results will at least give you some determination re close matches which can be compared in chromosome browser and in common with functions to separate the lines. If you BOTH have family finder test then you will have many more options which can then be analysed further within FTDNA FF software as well as Gedmatch and other 3rd Party tools

3. You should order a completely NEW kit for him (DO NOT UPGRADE FROM WITHIN HIS PROFILE) and instead of ordering a new y12 , order y37 instead, along with Family Finder if affordable. Advise the liaison staff at FTDNA that you will be doing this and if the result returns as NOT Q3 will they refund the original cost of Y12 etc. You must eliminate a mix-up in batching from the equation therefore a completely new sample is the best way of proceeding with confidence.

4. An NPE cannot be ruled out; this would generally be the basis for further discussion in any situation whereby Q3 paternal Haplogroup is present in a European (German) ylineage. Your grandfather arriving at NY after WW1 during 1923 point to European not native American ancestry however there are TWO births in USA where any NPE could occur; of course this must be considered and eliminated. Babies were sometimes mixed up in hospitals, as an extreme example.

5. a) Birth in USA -NY ? of your Father and Uncle.
b) Birth in USA of your Brother.

6. Hold off with any further advanced SNP testing until the steps above have been completed. Proceed slowly step by step until you have some autosomal results to guide you, along with confirmation of indicated Haplogroup via the brand new yDNA y37 test. You will receive a new Kit number for the new sample.

7. Very important. Do NOT upgrade the old sample; it must be bypassed completely. No use building up upon what might be a flawed sample. (unlikely, yet must be considered and eliminated)

8. Your mention of a pre-marital pregnancy for your great grandmother in Germany also rings alarm bells. As you know Russia & Germany were at War during the period under discussion. Many Siberians were in the Russian Army. Q3 also associated with Siberia? Rape was common re invasion forces during those dark times. You could produce a timeline in order to determine exact possibilities from that point forward. Not sure when Grandpa was born so you can eliminate possibilities.

Good Luck.
Alexandrina.

Alexandrina
16th July 2014, 11:42 PM
Dawn,

If your family used the mane Von-Richter they are not to be found in New York anywhere in any census 1925., 1930., 1940.
I presume that you have researched this line extensively and have birth, death & marriage records for all concerned however there is a family in this vicinity during the time-frame under discussion using the name RICHTER alone without the Von appended.

You state that your grandfather was an only child however the family I found also had 2 daughters, Ursula and Olga as well as a son Erich G. born in 1914 in Germany? as you have discussed. This family stated in the 1930 census that the children were all born in New York. or this was a misprint. Then in 1940 they stated that the children were all born in Germany.

The immigration date for an Erich Richter to New York is given as 1925. There were many voyages out of the Port in the 20's for Erich Richter who was a merchant seaman later during WW2 and highly decorated. He at one time lived in nearby Connecticut.

The wife in this family is named Kate. This Eric was born in Germany as was his father Erich who DID come to USA with wife Kate, Eric & the other and children in 1925. Of course it could be that this is a different family though and if so...where are your family in 1925 ., 1930., and 1940 within the census because after extensive searching I cannot find them?

One must always confirm the recent paper trail wherever possible and as you seem to have good records on your grandfather perhaps you can confirm the name they were using in New York once they immigrated.

Based upon the research in the census though , the only Eric Richter - not Von-Richter was born in 1914 in Germany vs NY , had siblings, arrived with his father & mother during 1925, and was unmarried at the time of the 1940 census and living at home still, with his family. This Eric may be the merchant seaman attached to US Navy who received various awards.

If your Grandfather Erich arrived in 1923 he would have been only 9 years old. With whom did he travel then, and did he arrive as an orphan?

I have various records I can mail to you if this is your family. Here is the 1930 census record.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X4JM-TF2


This is from the 1940 Census:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KQRD-QLT
(https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KQRD-QLT)


Alexandrina

1798
17th July 2014, 06:53 AM
Wikipedia
"Haplogroup Q-M242 may be one of the most widely distributed Y-chromosome lineages in the modern world. It is found in the Americas, North Africa, East Asia, South Asia, West Asia, and in Europe.

The Americas[edit]
Further information: Indigenous Amerindian genetics and Y-DNA haplogroups in Indigenous peoples of the Americas
Several branches of haplogroup Q-M242 are part of the pre-Columbian male lineages in the predominant Y-chromosome haplogroup in indigenous peoples of the Americas. They were part of groups who migrated from Asia into the Americas by crossing the Bering Strait.[2] These small groups had few founders, but they must have included men from the Q-M346, Q-L54, Q-Z780, and Q-M3 lineages. In Canada, two other lineages have been found. These are Q-P89.1 and Q-NWT01. They may not be from the Beringia Crossings but instead come from later immigrants who traveled along the shoreline of East Asia and then the Americas using boats.

It is unclear whether the current frequency of Q-M242 lineages represents their frequency at the time of immigration or is the result of shifts in a small founder population over time. However, Q-M242 came to dominate the paternal lineages in the Americas. Indeed, haplogroup Q-M242 has been found in approximately 94% of Indigenous peoples of South America[9] and detected in Na-Dené speakers at a rate of 25-50%, and North American Eskimo–Aleut populations at about 46%.[10]

However, a 4000-year-old Saqqaq individual belonging to Q-MEH2 haplogroup has been documented.[11]"

Armando
18th July 2014, 10:33 AM
Why do you have to be? Q-M3 is found in most NA but I don't remember anyone saying that it can't be found outside of America.

The issue of NPE is not necessarily related to having German ancestry and that Q3 is rare in Germany.

Q-M3, formerly known as Q3, is not rare in Germany. It is completely non-existent.

The other issue is her father and his siblings are the first generation born in the U.S.

That is why she has stated the only person that could have been fathered by an unknown person is her grandfather who was born in Germany. Meaning that, if proven, this would be the very first case of Q-M3 being found in a person of German ancestry.

it would also establish whether they are full or half siblings, dealing with the question of NPE, at least in the case of her brother.

http://forums.familytreedna.com/showpost.php?p=388111&postcount=82

MMaddi
18th July 2014, 12:10 PM
http://forums.familytreedna.com/showpost.php?p=388111&postcount=82

I read her post that you linked to. However, her belief, based on the idea that she and her brother look "just like" her father and his side of the family, doesn't totally refute the idea that she and her brother may be half and not full siblings. How many families have believed that before and found out that the father is not the biological father of one or more of the children? That's why DNA testing for genealogy research is assuming more importance - it subjects beliefs to scientific evidence.

Her belief is somewhat subjective and may be right. But it doesn't prove that they are full siblings; having Family Finder or 23andMe results for both her and her brother would be definite proof (or not) that they're full siblings.

Also, since her father is alive, it would probably be a good idea to have him test as well. That would resolve the question of NPE between him and his son and also be a check on the hard to believe haplogroup.

1798
18th July 2014, 01:04 PM
Q-M3, formerly known as Q3, is not rare in Germany. It is completely non-existent.

http://forums.familytreedna.com/showpost.php?p=388111&postcount=82

It is the age of Q-M3 that counts.If it originated before the Bering Straight crossing why would it not be found outside of America?

Armando
18th July 2014, 01:28 PM
It is the age of Q-M3 that counts.If it originated before the Bering Straight crossing why would it not be found outside of America?

What counts is that thousands of people with known proven German ancestry have been tested and not a single person has shown to be positive for Q-M3. They haven't found a single European to be positive for Q-M3 including Eastern Europeans and Russians. The only living people outside of America that have tested positive for Q-M3 are Siberians as Igmayka has pointed out. The age does not matter. We already knew it was possible that Q-M3 was in Siberia before the migration to over the Bering strait. It has not been proven to have been in Europe, ever.

Armando
18th July 2014, 01:31 PM
I read her post that you linked to. However, her belief, based on the idea that she and her brother look "just like" her father and his side of the family, doesn't totally refute the idea that she and her brother may be half and not full siblings. How many families have believed that before and found out that the father is not the biological father of one or more of the children? That's why DNA testing for genealogy research is assuming more importance - it subjects beliefs to scientific evidence.

Her belief is somewhat subjective and may be right. But it doesn't prove that they are full siblings; having Family Finder or 23andMe results for both her and her brother would be definite proof (or not) that they're full siblings.

Also, since her father is alive, it would probably be a good idea to have him test as well. That would resolve the question of NPE between him and his son and also be a check on the hard to believe haplogroup.

The problem is she will not get those tests because she does not believe that is the case. I had already suggested that she, her brother, and her aunt get a Family Finder test for the very reason you outlined. Based on her responses up to now that isn't going to happen.

MMaddi
18th July 2014, 02:05 PM
The problem is she will not get those tests because she does not believe that is the case. I had already suggested that she, her brother, and her aunt get a Family Finder test for the very reason you outlined. Based on her responses up to now that isn't going to happen.

If that's the case, I'll bow out of commenting further in this thread. If someone doesn't want to get more evidence to determine what's the truth, it's not worth my time advising what the next step should be.

1798
18th July 2014, 02:21 PM
It has not been proven to have been in Europe, ever.

The women said her ancestor came from Germany and you are saying that she is a liar.

Armando
18th July 2014, 03:32 PM
The women said her ancestor came from Germany and you are saying that she is a liar.

This isn't the first time you have gone to that level of commenting in posts so it's not surprising to read that.

Your are free to believe what you want. If you really cared to know what I am saying, which you don't, she hasn't proven the story she has been told. She, her brother, her father, her aunt and any other older generations need to get further testing to prove it because it goes against what's been found until now. It could be that her paternal line is one out of thousands of Europeans that have been tested that is Q-M3, but there will always be doubt until multiple tests by multiple family members are done.

She hasn't even told us if her brother has matches at the 12 marker level. If he does, where are the matches from? The 12 marker ysearch match that Igmayka pointed out should be in his list if that person tested with FTDNA and allowed his matches to see him. Is he in the list of matches?

Dawn
18th July 2014, 09:10 PM
Hi Alexadrina, I have all of our census records and death certificates, etc. There is a bigger story as to why our names are currently the way they are.

My Great Grandmother was Louise Fehlhaber, she had a child by Eric Von Richter in 1914 in Penig, Germany. They were unmarried at the time, she worked for the Von Richter family. The Fehlhaber family resided in Penig as well. Eric Von Richter never came to the U.S., just my great grandmother and my grandfather did. When she brought my grandfather over to the U.S. (1923), she gave him her maiden name, Fehlhaber. So my grandfather became Kurt Fehlhaber here in the U.S. However, in Germany he was recognized as Kurt Von Richter, and my aunt had the formal paper from Germany (since they are strict on names) that stated his name was Kurt Von Richter. My grandfather, before WWII, visited Germany many times and saw his Von Richter family, my aunt remembers him telling her how he later saw his uncle (his father's brother) and he thought he was looking at his father - since Eric Von Richter was a twin. When my grandfather had my father (who is also a twin), he named him Eric, after his dad. I have my grandfather's death certificate that also states his father is Eric Von Richter. I am in communication with the German Registrar of Penig to get my grandfather's birth certificate from there.

This is why the census records in the U.S. do not reflect Von Richter.

Dawn,

If your family used the mane Von-Richter they are not to be found in New York anywhere in any census 1925., 1930., 1940.
I presume that you have researched this line extensively and have birth, death & marriage records for all concerned however there is a family in this vicinity during the time-frame under discussion using the name RICHTER alone without the Von appended.

You state that your grandfather was an only child however the family I found also had 2 daughters, Ursula and Olga as well as a son Erich G. born in 1914 in Germany? as you have discussed. This family stated in the 1930 census that the children were all born in New York. or this was a misprint. Then in 1940 they stated that the children were all born in Germany.

The immigration date for an Erich Richter to New York is given as 1925. There were many voyages out of the Port in the 20's for Erich Richter who was a merchant seaman later during WW2 and highly decorated. He at one time lived in nearby Connecticut.

The wife in this family is named Kate. This Eric was born in Germany as was his father Erich who DID come to USA with wife Kate, Eric & the other and children in 1925. Of course it could be that this is a different family though and if so...where are your family in 1925 ., 1930., and 1940 within the census because after extensive searching I cannot find them?

One must always confirm the recent paper trail wherever possible and as you seem to have good records on your grandfather perhaps you can confirm the name they were using in New York once they immigrated.

Based upon the research in the census though , the only Eric Richter - not Von-Richter was born in 1914 in Germany vs NY , had siblings, arrived with his father & mother during 1925, and was unmarried at the time of the 1940 census and living at home still, with his family. This Eric may be the merchant seaman attached to US Navy who received various awards.

If your Grandfather Erich arrived in 1923 he would have been only 9 years old. With whom did he travel then, and did he arrive as an orphan?

I have various records I can mail to you if this is your family. Here is the 1930 census record.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X4JM-TF2


This is from the 1940 Census:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KQRD-QLT
(https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KQRD-QLT)


Alexandrina

Dawn
18th July 2014, 09:25 PM
I read her post that you linked to. However, her belief, based on the idea that she and her brother look "just like" her father and his side of the family, doesn't totally refute the idea that she and her brother may be half and not full siblings. How many families have believed that before and found out that the father is not the biological father of one or more of the children? That's why DNA testing for genealogy research is assuming more importance - it subjects beliefs to scientific evidence.

Her belief is somewhat subjective and may be right. But it doesn't prove that they are full siblings; having Family Finder or 23andMe results for both her and her brother would be definite proof (or not) that they're full siblings.

Also, since her father is alive, it would probably be a good idea to have him test as well. That would resolve the question of NPE between him and his son and also be a check on the hard to believe haplogroup.

My brother and I both inherited the rare RHD gene deletion that gives us type A, Rh negative blood, our blood type is found in only 6% of the U.S. population. In order to have it, both parents must carry the gene recessively. The fact that my brother and I have this rare blood type leads me to believe there is a very high probability that we share the same parents, besides the fact that we look like twins and inherited my father's unique nose.

Dawn
18th July 2014, 09:36 PM
If that's the case, I'll bow out of commenting further in this thread. If someone doesn't want to get more evidence to determine what's the truth, it's not worth my time advising what the next step should be.

I do plan on getting further testing, at the moment, they are testing the second vial of my brother's kit. If it comes back as another Haplogroup altogether then I know a mistake was made. If it comes back the same, then much more testing will need to be ordered and I understand that.

Dawn
18th July 2014, 09:51 PM
This isn't the first time you have gone to that level of commenting in posts so it's not surprising to read that.

Your are free to believe what you want. If you really cared to know what I am saying, which you don't, she hasn't proven the story she has been told. She, her brother, her father, her aunt and any other older generations need to get further testing to prove it because it goes against what's been found until now. It could be that her paternal line is one out of thousands of Europeans that have been tested that is Q-M3, but there will always be doubt until multiple tests by multiple family members are done.

She hasn't even told us if her brother has matches at the 12 marker level. If he does, where are the matches from? The 12 marker ysearch match that Igmayka pointed out should be in his list if that person tested with FTDNA and allowed his matches to see him. Is he in the list of matches?

Armando,

I have one 12 marker match only -- at 1 genetic distance. I've contacted him already, but I'm waiting for a reply.

1798
19th July 2014, 04:02 AM
Armando,

I have one 12 marker match only -- at 1 genetic distance. I've contacted him already, but I'm waiting for a reply.

12 marker matches are meaningless. I have 76 exact matches and I would have to go back at least 8000 years to be related to any of them.

1798
19th July 2014, 06:08 AM
This isn't the first time you have gone to that level of commenting in posts so it's not surprising to read that.



It is not as bad as the level that you are going to by saying that the woman's grandmother was a loose woman. It must be a wind up as she isn't one bit angry at you.

Leeb
19th July 2014, 06:29 AM
12 marker matches are meaningless. I have 76 exact matches and I would have to go back at least 8000 years to be related to any of them.
Lol :)

Dawn
19th July 2014, 08:56 AM
12 marker matches are meaningless. I have 76 exact matches and I would have to go back at least 8000 years to be related to any of them.

I agree, but I contacted him anyway just to ask about his ancestry.

Armando
19th July 2014, 07:41 PM
It is not as bad as the level that you are going to by saying that the woman's grandmother was a loose woman. It must be a wind up as she isn't one bit angry at you.

Somebody must have dropped you on your head as a child.

Armando
19th July 2014, 08:13 PM
I agree, but I contacted him anyway just to ask about his ancestry.

Since not everyone uploads to ysearch I was curious if you had more than one match. Since not everyone that uploads to ysearch continues to allow their name to show as a match I was wondering if the ysearch match showed up in your list of matches.

I have seen multiple cases of people with only a few matches at 12 markers and when they get to 67 markers they still have one or two of those people in their list of matches. So a 12 marker could still end up being a match at 67 markers.

Most of the time the match list will tell you how many markers your match has tested out to with Y-DNA12, Y-DNA25, Y-DNA37 or Y-DNA67 where the email, TiP, and note links are located. If your match has tested out further then there is a chance he will still be a match at 37 markers.

If you didn't have a match at 12 markers the chance that one would show up at 37 markers would be very slim but still possible since they allow a greater difference in markers for matches.

I know 3 people that are M3+. At 12, 25, and 37 markers 2 have no matches whatsoever. A 3rd person has 1 match with a surname from the same ethnic group. Q-M3 people don't seem to have many matches at 12 markers most of the time. R1b people have a ton of matches at 12 markers most of the time.

Dawn
19th July 2014, 11:24 PM
Since not everyone uploads to ysearch I was curious if you had more than one match. Since not everyone that uploads to ysearch continues to allow their name to show as a match I was wondering if the ysearch match showed up in your list of matches.

I have seen multiple cases of people with only a few matches at 12 markers and when they get to 67 markers they still have one or two of those people in their list of matches. So a 12 marker could still end up being a match at 67 markers.

Most of the time the match list will tell you how many markers your match has tested out to with Y-DNA12, Y-DNA25, Y-DNA37 or Y-DNA67 where the email, TiP, and note links are located. If your match has tested out further then there is a chance he will still be a match at 37 markers.

If you didn't have a match at 12 markers the chance that one would show up at 37 markers would be very slim but still possible since they allow a greater difference in markers for matches.

I know 3 people that are M3+. At 12, 25, and 37 markers 2 have no matches whatsoever. A 3rd person has 1 match with a surname from the same ethnic group. Q-M3 people don't seem to have many matches at 12 markers most of the time. R1b people have a ton of matches at 12 markers most of the time.

I got in contact with the man who matched me, at 1 genetic distance, with 12 markers. He's had 67 markers tested, as well as the National Genographic 2.0 test, and a Family Finder test. He is an African American male with his paternal lineage of Native American.

When I upload to Ysearch, this man is still the only 12 marker match that comes up for me, and there are plenty of people who tested at Q-M3.

The TIP chart says that the probability of sharing a common ancestor with this man, within 4 generations, is only 7.22%. In 8 generations its 20.28%. Very low probability.

1798
20th July 2014, 01:37 AM
Somebody must have dropped you on your head as a child.

What happened to you?

1798
20th July 2014, 08:02 AM
I got in contact with the man who matched me, at 1 genetic distance, with 12 markers. He's had 67 markers tested, as well as the National Genographic 2.0 test, and a Family Finder test. He is an African American male with his paternal lineage of Native American.

When I upload to Ysearch, this man is still the only 12 marker match that comes up for me, and there are plenty of people who tested at Q-M3.

The TIP chart says that the probability of sharing a common ancestor with this man, within 4 generations, is only 7.22%. In 8 generations its 20.28%. Very low probability.

There are 53 men at ysearch with 8 out of your 12 markers.
24,10,12,12,12,13,14,30. Two of them are Q1a3a and one is from England and the other from France. The majority of the men belong to R1b. Those dys markers have been in the YDNA for 25,000 years.

Armando
20th July 2014, 08:56 AM
I got in contact with the man who matched me, at 1 genetic distance, with 12 markers. He's had 67 markers tested, as well as the National Genographic 2.0 test, and a Family Finder test. He is an African American male with his paternal lineage of Native American.

When I upload to Ysearch, this man is still the only 12 marker match that comes up for me, and there are plenty of people who tested at Q-M3.

The TIP chart says that the probability of sharing a common ancestor with this man, within 4 generations, is only 7.22%. In 8 generations its 20.28%. Very low probability.

Not that I think you will be a match at 37 markers but there are still people that have a common ancestor within 12 generations when they match 11 out of 12 markers.

I know some people that have a common ancestor 12 generations back based on very good documentation that is publicly available for the 3rd to 12th generation. At 12 markers they are off by 1 marker and the TiP report says that they only have a 20.28% chance of a common ancestor within 8 generations. They also match at 37 markers with a difference of 3 and the TiP report says that they have 45.31% of a common ancestor within 8 generations. They only show 74.49% chance to have a common ancestor within 12 generations and 90.04% within 16 generations. They match 5 other people at 37 markers with the same surname and they are from the same region and they all have documentation back to the same common ancestor from 12 generations ago. The only people they have in their list of matches at 37 markers are people with their surname and one other person with a different surname that is from the same region.

1798
20th July 2014, 01:06 PM
There are 53 men at ysearch with 8 out of your 12 markers.
24,10,12,12,12,13,14,30. Two of them are Q1a3a and one is from England and the other from France. The majority of the men belong to R1b. Those dys markers have been in the YDNA for 25,000 years.

Q1a3 modal at ysearch 95BTR 67 markers.

Dawn
20th July 2014, 09:55 PM
Using Y-search would be easier for me if I could register. I get a constant "internal server error" and each time I have to manually enter in my my markers. I only have 2 possible surnames on my paternal side: Von Richter and Fehlhaber.

1798
21st July 2014, 01:58 AM
Using Y-search would be easier for me if I could register. I get a constant "internal server error" and each time I have to manually enter in my my markers. I only have 2 possible surnames on my paternal side: Von Richter and Fehlhaber.

When you go to ysearch use the "create a new user" mode. I don't see a problem with it.

1798
21st July 2014, 02:21 AM
"Haplogroup Q (M242) evolved in Siberia about 20,000 years ago. SNP M378 is a downstream (evolved later in time) mutation which has been found in about 5% of Ashkenazi (northern European) Jewish men and at low frequency among samples of the Hazara and Sindhi tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. More recently discovered downstream SNPs appear to have originated in the Mediterranean area."

Armando
21st July 2014, 07:23 AM
Using Y-search would be easier for me if I could register. I get a constant "internal server error" and each time I have to manually enter in my my markers. I only have 2 possible surnames on my paternal side: Von Richter and Fehlhaber.

First you need to get a 67 marker test for your brother so you can see if any matches show up at all at 37 or 67 markers.

Aperipatetic1
21st July 2014, 06:56 PM
I got in contact with the man who matched me, at 1 genetic distance, with 12 markers. He's had 67 markers tested, as well as the National Genographic 2.0 test, and a Family Finder test. He is an African American male with his paternal lineage of Native American.


If you have a mismatch at 12 markers, which is where you mathematically have the best chance of a random match with others of that Hg modal STR set, you are most likely to have a giant mismatch at a expanded marker set.

Ysearch is not of a whole lot of use, because apparently only those who actively upload into it are there for comparison. I have been told in a another thread that no FTDNA tested samples automatically get uploaded into Ysearch, meaning those samples are already in the largest Y database, and are the least likely to go to the trouble of manually uploading into Ysearch, particularly if they found confirmation of what they wanted to find in the FTDNA database.

I would direct you energy in finding if you are full genetic siblings to your brother and if your father is genetically full sibling to his brothers or father, to figure out where to go next. Most Native Americans east of the Mississippi were African admixed to some degree, as well as Euro admixed, so the African/Euro/Native admix is not unusual. Unless he is from the area your parents or g-parents resided, I would not have much confidence in a 11/12 Y-STR match.

I know a lot of Mohawk and other NY tribal members came to New York and built the Iron structural components of the WTC and other major NYC buildings, so maybe check the census for native surnames of Mohawks living in proximity of your parents or grandparents.

Aperipatetic1
21st July 2014, 06:59 PM
There are 53 men at ysearch with 8 out of your 12 markers.
24,10,12,12,12,13,14,30. Two of them are Q1a3a and one is from England and the other from France. The majority of the men belong to R1b. Those dys markers have been in the YDNA for 25,000 years.

If they are actually AMERICAN SAMPLES and they are claiming that their paternal ancestor goes back to those nations, this is quite questionable in a lot, if not most, cases.

They may genuinely believe their ancestor goes back to such nation or locality, but its often a very shaky and tentative documentation. esp for those who were on the colonial american frontier.

There are many americans with a african or native Hg who had previously claimed their paternal ancestor was from someplace in Europe or the British Isles, before DNA testing.

trifud
21st July 2014, 07:11 PM
Using Y-search would be easier for me if I could register. I get a constant "internal server error" and each time I have to manually enter in my my markers. I only have 2 possible surnames on my paternal side: Von Richter and Fehlhaber.

You can get an Ysearch account automatically with your data already uploaded by following this link (https://my.familytreedna.com/y-dna-matches.aspx) and then clicking the 'Upload to Ysearch.org' button.

There are other databases too like YHRD and SMGF.

1798
22nd July 2014, 05:44 AM
"Haplogroup Q (M242) evolved in Siberia about 20,000 years ago. SNP M378 is a downstream (evolved later in time) mutation which has been found in about 5% of Ashkenazi (northern European) Jewish men and at low frequency among samples of the Hazara and Sindhi tribes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. More recently discovered downstream SNPs appear to have originated in the Mediterranean area."

If haplogroup R is 25,000 years or older I would not understand why Q would be 5000 years younger. R and Q are brother haplogroups and it would be unusual for a family not to have a Y mutation in 5000 years.
Also R was in Siberia 24,000 years ago and why did no R men cross over the Bering Strait or did they? M173 is found in the NA.

GarethH
22nd July 2014, 02:49 PM
If haplogroup R is 25,000 years or older I would not understand why Q would be 5000 years younger. R and Q are brother haplogroups and it would be unusual for a family not to have a Y mutation in 5000 years.

R and Q are not "brothers" in that sense. Yes, there was a most recent common ancestor of all Q and R lines and he must have had two sons. Those two sons were the founders of Q and R but are not the most recent common ancestors of Q and R which is when the age of those haplogroups has to be measured from. There is no reason why the most recent common ancestor of R couldn't have lived centuries before the most recent common ancestor of Q - the qualifying characteristic is the number (or absence) of surviving branch lines, not the number (or absence) of mutations.

1798
23rd July 2014, 12:16 AM
There is no reason why the most recent common ancestor of R couldn't have lived centuries before the most recent common ancestor of Q - the qualifying characteristic is the number (or absence) of surviving branch lines, not the number (or absence) of mutations.

There is no reason why the most recent common ancestor of Q couldn't have lived centuries before the most recent common ancestor of R either, but due to the fact that Mal'ta boy was found we know that R is older than 24,000 years.
If it turns out that 150 years on average per SNP is correct for R1b it does not mean that that is the norm for other haplogroups. We have seen already that some families have more ystr mutations and SNPs than others.

Armando
23rd July 2014, 11:08 AM
There is no reason why the most recent common ancestor of Q couldn't have lived centuries before the most recent common ancestor of R either, but due to the fact that Mal'ta boy was found we know that R is older than 24,000 years.
If it turns out that 150 years on average per SNP is correct for R1b it does not mean that that is the norm for other haplogroups. We have seen already that some families have more ystr mutations and SNPs than others.

That doesn't matter because this thread is about Q-M3 no matter how much you want it to be about something else.

1798
23rd July 2014, 01:51 PM
That doesn't matter because this thread is about Q-M3 no matter how much you want it to be about something else.

This thread is about Q-M3 and what? The question is was Q-M3 born before the Bering Strait crossing or after? That is something that you cannot answer.

Armando
25th July 2014, 08:05 AM
This thread is about Q-M3 and what? The question is was Q-M3 born before the Bering Strait crossing or after? That is something that you cannot answer.

You are hijacking the thread with posts irrelevant to problem presented by Dawn, the original poster of this thread.

You are the only person that ever questioned if Q-M3 was born before the Bering Strait crossing or after. So no, that is not the question this thread is about.

1798
25th July 2014, 12:46 PM
You are hijacking the thread with posts irrelevant to problem presented by Dawn, the original poster of this thread.

You are the only person that ever questioned if Q-M3 was born before the Bering Strait crossing or after. So no, that is not the question this thread is about.

Dawn is not the one with the problem.

LynCra
25th July 2014, 02:18 PM
Dawn is the one with the original question. It would be to her benefit if we could all respect that and stick to topic.

Dawn
25th July 2014, 08:07 PM
Just to update I'm saving up money for a Family Finder test for myself and my brother. That is my next step while I'm waiting for the 2nd vial of my brother's DNA to be tested.

As far as Q-M3 before the Bering Strait crossing, I am only aware of the current science which states that it happened after the Bering Strait crossing.

1798
26th July 2014, 03:16 AM
As far as Q-M3 before the Bering Strait crossing, I am only aware of the current science which states that it happened after the Bering Strait crossing.

If Q-M3 originated in America then your paternal ancestor is NA.

Dawn
26th July 2014, 04:01 PM
If Q-M3 originated in America then your paternal ancestor is NA.

That was the whole reason why I started this thread, because my paternal ancestor is not from North or South America at all. He was German, his family was from Austria.

rbmirvin
28th July 2014, 10:02 PM
That was the whole reason why I started this thread, because my paternal ancestor is not from North or South America at all. He was German, his family was from Austria.

How well can the Von Richter line be traced back in Austria? Not counting merchants and seamen abroad during the 18th and 19th centuries, some colonial families returned home, even before the Revolution. Other folks left with the onset of the Civil War.

It's more than a bit of a stretch to suggest a decades-older date for introduction of the haplotype, but no worse than the suggestion on the previous page that my own paternal line can't really be Scots-Irish for having settled on the American colonial frontier :D

BJackson
21st September 2014, 08:53 AM
Fascinating thread. Was there any resolution to this? It looks like the last post was in July.

Dawn
21st September 2014, 05:45 PM
How well can the Von Richter line be traced back in Austria? Not counting merchants and seamen abroad during the 18th and 19th centuries, some colonial families returned home, even before the Revolution. Other folks left with the onset of the Civil War.

It's more than a bit of a stretch to suggest a decades-older date for introduction of the haplotype, but no worse than the suggestion on the previous page that my own paternal line can't really be Scots-Irish for having settled on the American colonial frontier :D


I have the premium membership on Ancestry.com and I can't seem to find much on Von Richter. I still have to send my info to Germany in order to get my grandfather's birth certificate.

Dawn
21st September 2014, 05:46 PM
Fascinating thread. Was there any resolution to this? It looks like the last post was in July.

Finances have been a little rough for the last 2 months, but hopefully, very soon, I'll be ordering a family finder test for myself, then ordering additional Y-DNA markers on my brother's kit.

BJackson
22nd September 2014, 07:05 AM
Best of luck.

Dawn
30th December 2014, 08:54 PM
Just to update, I've ordered the Family Finder test for myself first. If my father's Y-DNA is truly Native American, I'm assuming it'll show up there. It also may give me a clue as to the lineage on my mother's side.

Táltos
30th December 2014, 09:09 PM
Just to update, I've ordered the Family Finder test for myself first. If my father's Y-DNA is truly Native American, I'm assuming it'll show up there. It also may give me a clue as to the lineage on my mother's side.
Dawn it is possible that when your results come in they won't show Native American. If that happens though, keep in mind haplogroups are very old. Your father line can still very much be Native American.

Over the years DNA recombines, and gets diluted down, especially when our ancestors do not keep having children with others of the same ancestry. People can have Native American haplos and no autosomal admixture for it. I have seen people post at 23andme that they actually carried both Native Y DNA and mtDNA, yet that had no Native American result in their Ancestry Composition.

Good luck on your test. Either way it will be interesting.

Armando
31st December 2014, 07:40 AM
Dawn, Táltos is correct. Not having NA in your results won't mean that your father does not have a NA paternal line. It only takes 5-7 generations for Native American ancestry to disappear from autosomal DNA results. My uncle is about 30% and I am about 15%. If I had kids with someone without NA the kids would be about 7% and their grand kids would probably not even have NA if that cycle were to continue.

Dawn
31st December 2014, 03:20 PM
My maternal ancestry for the last 7 generations is pretty solid, it's my paternal ancestry that's the mystery. My paternal grandfather was born in Germany, and my father was the first generation born in the United States. I'm hoping this FF test will give me some clues, and I'm hoping that I may match someone from that side of the family.

Dawn
20th June 2015, 10:32 PM
Just to update this thread.

My Dad's sister got tested at Ancestry.com. She has no Native American ancestry, not even 1%. No AmeriIndian, nothing. I uploaded her results to GEDmatch, ran her raw data through various Admixtures -- again no Native American. However, we mutually match several Q1b ancestors, and one of them share the same surname in the same location as our paternal line. So how on earth can my paternal line be Q1a?????

And my aunt and I match completely as being related -- which proves that her brother is really my Dad so there wasn't a non-paternal event.

I just have this gut feeling that FtDNA has the Y-DNA Haplogroup wrong, or there is a mistake in saying that all Q1a is strictly Native American.

Our next step is getting my uncle (he's my Dad's twin brother) tested with a Y-DNA 37 marker for starters.

lgmayka
21st June 2015, 05:25 AM
Dawn,

- I don't see any posting of the results of FTDNA's free test of the second vial. Was that Q-M3 also?

- If you order a new Y-DNA37 kit before the end of today (June 21), you should be able to use the jam30 coupon to get $30 off the regular $149 price. (Be sure to order through a project (https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Project_Pending) to see the $149, otherwise you might see $169.)

Armando
21st June 2015, 07:27 AM
Just to update this thread.

My Dad's sister got tested at Ancestry.com. She has no Native American ancestry, not even 1%. No AmeriIndian, nothing. I uploaded her results to GEDmatch, ran her raw data through various Admixtures -- again no Native American. However, we mutually match several Q1b ancestors, and one of them share the same surname in the same location as our paternal line. So how on earth can my paternal line be Q1a?????

And my aunt and I match completely as being related -- which proves that her brother is really my Dad so there wasn't a non-paternal event.

I just have this gut feeling that FtDNA has the Y-DNA Haplogroup wrong, or there is a mistake in saying that all Q1a is strictly Native American.

Our next step is getting my uncle (he's my Dad's twin brother) tested with a Y-DNA 37 marker for starters.

The lack of Native American/Amerindian DNA in the autosomal results of your paternal aunt doesn't disprove Native American ancestry through the direct paternal line more than 7 generations ago since the DNA gets reduced by about 50% every generation and at some point it is no longer detectable if there are no other NA ancestors. It just means either there wasn't a recent ancestor with a significant amount of NA DNA, if there ever was one.

If your father's twin gets a confirmed positive for Q-M3 and an STR match to your brother a lot of people will be very interested in knowing what the results of a BigY test are if you are ever able to get one for your brother or your uncle.

Dawn
21st June 2015, 08:09 PM
Dawn,

- I don't see any posting of the results of FTDNA's free test of the second vial. Was that Q-M3 also?

- If you order a new Y-DNA37 kit before the end of today (June 21), you should be able to use the jam30 coupon to get $30 off the regular $149 price. (Be sure to order through a project (https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Project_Pending) to see the $149, otherwise you might see $169.)

The second vial tested Q-M3 as well. No one in my paternal line was here in the U.S. prior to the 1900s, and prior to Germany they were in Austria.

Dawn
21st June 2015, 08:23 PM
The lack of Native American/Amerindian DNA in the autosomal results of your paternal aunt doesn't disprove Native American ancestry through the direct paternal line more than 7 generations ago since the DNA gets reduced by about 50% every generation and at some point it is no longer detectable if there are no other NA ancestors. It just means either there wasn't a recent ancestor with a significant amount of NA DNA, if there ever was one.

If your father's twin gets a confirmed positive for Q-M3 and an STR match to your brother a lot of people will be very interested in knowing what the results of a BigY test are if you are ever able to get one for your brother or your uncle.

I understand. The Von Richter family is who I descend from paternally, and they are from Austria but were in Germany for a time. I guess I just have a hard time wrapping my head around a Y-DNA haplogroup strictly Native American when my paternal family has been in Germany, Austria, and as far out as Croatia and Turkey, and possibly where the Khazars were.

lgmayka
22nd June 2015, 08:39 AM
The second vial tested Q-M3 as well. No one in my paternal line was here in the U.S. prior to the 1900s, and prior to Germany they were in Austria.
I suggest that the Haplogroup Q project start soliciting funds for your Big Y test. Your case appears to be very significant.

Dawn
22nd June 2015, 09:38 PM
I suggest that the Haplogroup Q project start soliciting funds for your Big Y test. Your case appears to be very significant.

That would help greatly.

Dawn
2nd July 2015, 11:08 PM
New information has come forth!

One mystery is sort of solved, while new mysteries arose:

I spoke with my paternal aunt extensively, I considered a NPE may have occurred somewhere due to this whole situation of weirdness.

So, she said that I should consider that my father may not have the same father as her. WHAT???

So I run our kits on GEDmatch and take a closer look -- and what do u know??? My beloved aunt only shares 1096 cM's with me -- not enough for a "full" aunt. But enough for a "half" aunt. So she's my Dad's HALF sister -- they do have 2 different fathers. She said she suspected it growing up for various reasons.

So I started cross referencing our Gedmatch matches -- I figure anyone who we mutually match I can safely assume (for now) that they are ancestors of my paternal grandmother, which is my aunt's mother. Everyone leftover on her match list is from her father. I assumed that her father was who I thought was my grandfather -- Kurt.
Well guess what? I see mostly Sicilians showing up on her list. Not only that, she told me she doesn't understand why she shows up 25% Italian, and was puzzled a few months ago when she was diagnosed with a blood condition that only happens in those descended from Italians (Thalessemia).
These people have their genealogy down -- their ancestors came from a specific area of Sicily and for a time a few of them lived in NY - where my grandmother lived.

So now I think my aunt's father may not be Kurt either! Maybe her and my dad have father's other than Kurt? I didn't tell her yet about the possibility that her father wasn't really her father.

Next step: my brother's Y-DNA kit was upgraded to 37 markers. Steve from the Algonquian project thinks I'm descended from that NA group.

My dad's other sister is having a kit ordered so she can test (family finder).

Talk about skeletons coming out of the closet. I can't even imagine my grandmother (now deceased) having my dad and his twin brother from another man -- let alone my aunt too! It's almost too much, but my desire to know who my ancestors were compels me to go forth.

Armando
2nd July 2015, 11:59 PM
New information has come forth!

One mystery is sort of solved, while new mysteries arose:

I spoke with my paternal aunt extensively, I considered a NPE may have occurred somewhere due to this whole situation of weirdness.

So, she said that I should consider that my father may not have the same father as her. WHAT???

So I run our kits on GEDmatch and take a closer look -- and what do u know??? My beloved aunt only shares 1096 cM's with me -- not enough for a "full" aunt. But enough for a "half" aunt. So she's my Dad's HALF sister -- they do have 2 different fathers. She said she suspected it growing up for various reasons.

So I started cross referencing our Gedmatch matches -- I figure anyone who we mutually match I can safely assume (for now) that they are ancestors of my paternal grandmother, which is my aunt's mother. Everyone leftover on her match list is from her father. I assumed that her father was who I thought was my grandfather -- Kurt.
Well guess what? I see mostly Sicilians showing up on her list. Not only that, she told me she doesn't understand why she shows up 25% Italian, and was puzzled a few months ago when she was diagnosed with a blood condition that only happens in those descended from Italians (Thalessemia).
These people have their genealogy down -- their ancestors came from a specific area of Sicily and for a time a few of them lived in NY - where my grandmother lived.

So now I think my aunt's father may not be Kurt either! Maybe her and my dad have father's other than Kurt? I didn't tell her yet about the possibility that her father wasn't really her father.

Next step: my brother's Y-DNA kit was upgraded to 37 markers. Steve from the Algonquian project thinks I'm descended from that NA group.

My dad's other sister is having a kit ordered so she can test (family finder).

Talk about skeletons coming out of the closet. I can't even imagine my grandmother (now deceased) having my dad and his twin brother from another man -- let alone my aunt too! It's almost too much, but my desire to know who my ancestors were compels me to go forth.

Finally things are starting to make sense. DNA doesn't lie about certain situations. Thank you for updating us.

MMaddi
3rd July 2015, 10:30 AM
So I run our kits on GEDmatch and take a closer look -- and what do u know??? My beloved aunt only shares 1096 cM's with me -- not enough for a "full" aunt. But enough for a "half" aunt. So she's my Dad's HALF sister -- they do have 2 different fathers. She said she suspected it growing up for various reasons.

So I started cross referencing our Gedmatch matches -- I figure anyone who we mutually match I can safely assume (for now) that they are ancestors of my paternal grandmother, which is my aunt's mother. Everyone leftover on her match list is from her father. I assumed that her father was who I thought was my grandfather -- Kurt.
Well guess what? I see mostly Sicilians showing up on her list. Not only that, she told me she doesn't understand why she shows up 25% Italian, and was puzzled a few months ago when she was diagnosed with a blood condition that only happens in those descended from Italians (Thalessemia).
These people have their genealogy down -- their ancestors came from a specific area of Sicily and for a time a few of them lived in NY - where my grandmother lived.

So now I think my aunt's father may not be Kurt either! Maybe her and my dad have father's other than Kurt? I didn't tell her yet about the possibility that her father wasn't really her father.



Did your aunt test here at FTDNA or at one of the other companies, Ancestry or 23andMe? If she tested at 23andMe, I'd like to share results with her there. My paternal grandparents were Sicilian and I have a lot of Sicilian matches in my sharing list there. I could check to see if she shares any segments with some of those Sicilian ancestry matches.

Of course, if she's not aware of the skeleton you've discovered, it might be awkward to ask her to share with me at 23andMe. If you'd like me to take a look at her matches at Gedmatch and see if I can come up with some information about her Sicilian ancestry, send me a private message with her Gedmatch kit number. If she's tested here at FTDNA, you can also look on her match list and see if I show up there.

MMaddi
3rd July 2015, 10:51 AM
By the way, reading through this thread, I see that I brought up the issue of an NPE since the German ancestors arrived in the U.S. in a post almost a year ago. Now it seems that that's exactly what is the case, not only with the OP's paternal line but with her aunt. In fact, her aunt actually seems to be a half-aunt, meaning the OP's father and his sister are half-siblings and each have ancestry (Native American and Italian, respectively) not consistent with the OP's presumed German ancestry.

I only bring this delicate issue of NPE up again because it shows that we should never jump to conclusions about unusual haplogroups showing up in test results without seriously considering the possibility of an NPE. In this case it seems that there may have been two NPEs with different fathers.

Dawn
9th July 2015, 11:12 PM
By the way, reading through this thread, I see that I brought up the issue of an NPE since the German ancestors arrived in the U.S. in a post almost a year ago. Now it seems that that's exactly what is the case, not only with the OP's paternal line but with her aunt. In fact, her aunt actually seems to be a half-aunt, meaning the OP's father and his sister are half-siblings and each have ancestry (Native American and Italian, respectively) not consistent with the OP's presumed German ancestry.

I only bring this delicate issue of NPE up again because it shows that we should never jump to conclusions about unusual haplogroups showing up in test results without seriously considering the possibility of an NPE. In this case it seems that there may have been two NPEs with different fathers.

You are absolutely correct. I indirectly hinted at this in conversations with my Dad and his other sister in the past. Only after I discussed this on the phone with my other aunt who recently tested, and really pressed her in a firm but gentle way -- did she finally admit to the possible NPE scenario, which turned out to be true.

My half aunt tested at Ancestry, but I will give you her kit number and my kit number in a PM.

crossover
6th August 2015, 04:11 PM
Just to update this thread.

My Dad's sister got tested at Ancestry.com. She has no Native American ancestry, not even 1%. No AmeriIndian, nothing. I uploaded her results to GEDmatch, ran her raw data through various Admixtures -- again no Native American. However, we mutually match several Q1b ancestors, and one of them share the same surname in the same location as our paternal line. So how on earth can my paternal line be Q1a?????

And my aunt and I match completely as being related -- which proves that her brother is really my Dad so there wasn't a non-paternal event.

I just have this gut feeling that FtDNA has the Y-DNA Haplogroup wrong, or there is a mistake in saying that all Q1a is strictly Native American.

Our next step is getting my uncle (he's my Dad's twin brother) tested with a Y-DNA 37 marker for starters.

that explains a lot. i have to admit she did a pretty good jb hiding that stuff since you didn't find out about it until taking dna tests after she and her husband probably died (correct me if i'm wrong)

wkauffman
7th August 2015, 10:54 AM
We would still be interested in having y-DNA results from the Von Richter line present at FTDNA. There would be some interest in understanding the "nobility" relationship for any "von" line. So if you don't mind consider getting a cousin Von Richter tested. Could some of the von's have links to the royal Wettin lineage within the U106 haplogroup region?

Armando
7th August 2015, 11:19 AM
We would still be interested in having y-DNA results from the Von Richter line present at FTDNA. There would be some interest in understanding the "nobility" relationship for any "von" line. So if you don't mind consider getting a cousin Von Richter tested. Could some of the von's have links to the royal Wettin lineage within the U106 haplogroup region?

Dawn still hasn't tested enough people in her family to know when the NPE happened that gave them the Native American Q-M3, and supposed Siberian, haplogroup. The NPE most likely happened in the U.S. so you should wait until she has tested all of her living relatives that are willing to test.

Dawn
3rd September 2015, 10:35 AM
The NPE happened with my paternal grandmother. My dad and his sister, who thought they were full siblings all this time, found out they are only half siblings -- they share a different father. I believe this is why my brother's Y-DNA shows up Native American, my paternal grandfather was not really my grandfather biologically. I don't know who my paternal grandfather is now.

In any case, his Y-DNA was upgraded to 37 markers. No matches at all at this level. But definitely still Q-M3.

georgian1950
3rd September 2015, 10:46 AM
The NPE happened with my paternal grandmother. My dad and his sister, who thought they were full siblings all this time, found out they are only half siblings -- they share a different father. I believe this is why my brother's Y-DNA shows up Native American, my paternal grandfather was not really my grandfather biologically. I don't know who my paternal grandfather is now.

In any case, his Y-DNA was upgraded to 37 markers. No matches at all at this level. But definitely still Q-M3.

Dawn, thanks for the update. This is such a long thread that I can't remember what you said about your grandmother. Was she living in Germany when she had the children?

Jack

Armando
3rd September 2015, 10:51 AM
The NPE happened with my paternal grandmother. My dad and his sister, who thought they were full siblings all this time, found out they are only half siblings -- they share a different father. I believe this is why my brother's Y-DNA shows up Native American, my paternal grandfather was not really my grandfather biologically. I don't know who my paternal grandfather is now.

In any case, his Y-DNA was upgraded to 37 markers. No matches at all at this level. But definitely still Q-M3.

Thank you for clarifying that. Do you plan on getting autosomal DNA tests for your father and/or his twin? That could end up helping you find out which family your grandfather is from. The autosomal DNA results from your aunt could also aid in determining which matches are from your paternal grandmother.

Armando
3rd September 2015, 10:55 AM
Dawn, thanks for the update. This is such a long thread that I can't remember what you said about your grandmother. Was she living in Germany when she had the children?

Jack

She was living in Staten Island according to a previous post.


My grandfather came to the U.S. in 1923. He lived in Staten Island, NY his whole life. He met my grandmother in Staten Island as well.

Armando
3rd September 2015, 11:11 AM
My dad's other sister is having a kit ordered so she can test (family finder).

Talk about skeletons coming out of the closet. I can't even imagine my grandmother (now deceased) having my dad and his twin brother from another man -- let alone my aunt too! It's almost too much, but my desire to know who my ancestors were compels me to go forth.

I just re-read this. I had completely forgotten about it. Did you ever get your other aunt's results?

Dawn
5th November 2015, 09:26 PM
So my Dad got tested at Ancestry.com. His results, along with his half-sister, are uploaded to GEDmatch. I do match my dad as his child. His ethnicity shows up 39% Native American. I did a Lazarus kit for my mother based on my DNA and my Dad's. NA on her side is about 2%. So my brother's Y-DNA haplogroup being NA is accurate, since our Dad is over 1/3 NA. All of his matches that are not in common with my aunt are all "spanish" names, people from Mexico. He also has some North Atlantic ethnicity that doesn't match my aunt either, so whoever his father is must've been mixed NA and North Atlantic.
I might never know who my father's father was, my Dad's twin brother has finally agreed to get tested, but that's probably pointless since they are twins their DNA will be the same.

Armando
6th November 2015, 06:13 AM
So my Dad got tested at Ancestry.com. His results, along with his half-sister, are uploaded to GEDmatch. I do match my dad as his child. His ethnicity shows up 39% Native American. I did a Lazarus kit for my mother based on my DNA and my Dad's. NA on her side is about 2%. So my brother's Y-DNA haplogroup being NA is accurate, since our Dad is over 1/3 NA. All of his matches that are not in common with my aunt are all "spanish" names, people from Mexico.
39% Native American is huge for someone that is half-Mexican. A lot of 100% Mexican people don't get that much Native American. Your grandfather should have had 75-81% Native American and you should have about 17-22% NA. Who did you do your autosomal test with and what was the NA result?


He also has some North Atlantic ethnicity that doesn't match my aunt either, so whoever his father is must've been mixed NA and North Atlantic.
Almost all Mexicans are of mix Iberian, Native American, and few other ancestries. The Iberian has a lot of North Atlantic.

I might never know who my father's father was, my Dad's twin brother has finally agreed to get tested, but that's probably pointless since they are twins their DNA will be the same.
You can attempt to find out which family your grandfather comes from by transferring to FTDNA and also getting a 23andme test. If the brother is an identical twin then there is no reason to test him. If he is a fraternal twin then the autosomal DNA will be slightly different and could give you some other matches that your dad doesn't have.

By the way, this is the 3rd case in just a few weeks that I have heard of someone finding out that they are half-Mexican based on DNA testing but never suspected it because they look 100% European.

Dawn
6th November 2015, 05:29 PM
Here is my Dad's Eurogenes K13 Admixture result, if this helps. It's attached as a jpeg file.

Dawn
6th November 2015, 05:37 PM
The North Atlantic portion comes back as matching populations in Finland area.

Dawn
6th November 2015, 05:40 PM
By the way, this is the 3rd case in just a few weeks that I have heard of someone finding out that they are half-Mexican based on DNA testing but never suspected it because they look 100% European.

It's very strange indeed. I am the epitome of recessive genes lol. Blonde hair with red highlights, greenish yellow eyes, fair skin that burns in the sun (can't tan), Rh negative blood type (rare blood type found mostly in those of European descent).

Armando
6th November 2015, 05:44 PM
Here is my Dad's Eurogenes K13 Admixture result, if this helps. It's attached as a jpeg file.

I can't see the jpeg because it says Attachments Pending Approval. Can you upload it to imgur, Dropbox, or a similar site and post a link?

Armando
6th November 2015, 05:49 PM
The North Atlantic portion comes back as matching populations in Finland area.

The populations with the highest amounts of North Atlantic are the following (the numbers are percentages) -

Population North_Atlantic
West_Scottish 53.17667
French_Basque 52.62000
Irish 52.23000
Southwest_English 51.98333
Orcadian 51.33000
Norwegian 51.14667
Southeast_English 50.52000
North_Dutch 50.44667
Danish 50.04000
Swedish 48.52667
North_German 47.17000
South_Dutch 44.59000
North_Swedish 44.52000
Spanish_Aragon 43.83333
West_German 43.15000
French 42.60333
Southwest_French 42.35000
Spanish_Cantabria 41.80000
Spanish_Cataluna 41.36333
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 41.09000
Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 40.76000
Spanish_Valencia 40.53667
Spanish_Murcia 40.15333
Spanish_Andalucia 39.07000
Portuguese 38.53667
Spanish_Galicia 38.50667
Southwest_Finnish 38.50333
Spanish_Extremadura 38.27000
La_Brana-1 37.41000
East_German 37.34000


The North Atlantic is very high in the Spanish and Basque people and it is very high in Latin Americans, including Mexicans, because of the Spanish ancestry.


Here is a link to the Eurogenes K13 spreadsheet so you can see the reference populations and which get the highest amounts of which component.

http://bit.ly/1Qk1Qqe

Armando
6th November 2015, 05:55 PM
It's very strange indeed. I am the epitome of recessive genes lol. Blonde hair with red highlights, greenish yellow eyes, fair skin that burns in the sun (can't tan)

That's how one of the other half-Mexican was. I know of other half-Mexicans that are the same way. But you are 1/4 Mexican so it is even less surprising.

Dawn
6th November 2015, 06:47 PM
I can't see the jpeg because it says Attachments Pending Approval. Can you upload it to imgur, Dropbox, or a similar site and post a link?

Ok I uploaded it to photobucket.
http://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah254/Dawn_Reinas/Dad%20Eric%20Eurogenes%20K13_zpsyu0y8ol9.jpg

Dawn
6th November 2015, 07:02 PM
I don't really know if I'm actually Mexican, but all the people who match my father (and me) just happen to be Mexican (all fair skinned like me too).

Dawn
6th November 2015, 07:18 PM
MDLP K13 'Ultimate' Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Amerindian 37.73
2 ENF 25.74
3 WHG-UHG 14.81
4 ANE 10.97
5 Subsaharian 2.97
6 Caucas-Gedrosia 2.75
7 NearEast 2.47
8 Siberian 1.63


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bolivian + Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North@ 1.168832
2 Bolivian + Colombian + Colombian + Karelian @ 1.231560
3 Bolivian_Cochabamba + Colombian +Colombian + Finland_North @ 1.297618
4 Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North + Totonac @ 1.366122
5 Bolivian + Colombian + Colombian + Finland_South@ 1.403362
6 Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North + Inga @ 1.425245
7 Bolivian_Cochabamba+Colombian+Colombian+Karelian@ 1.449937
8 Colombian+Colombian+Finland_North+Quechua_Coriell@ 1.458311
9 Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North + Huichol @ 1.499308
10 Bolivian + Colombian + Colombian + Finn @ 1.563803
11 Colombian+ Colombian + Finland_South + Huichol @ 1.576074
12 Colombian + Colombian + Inga + Karelian @ 1.589440
13 Colombian + Colombian + Karelian + Totonac @ 1.601709
14 Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North + Mayan @ 1.620071
15 Colombian + Colombian + Huichol + Karelian @ 1.629801
16 Colombian+ Colombian + Finland_South + Totonac @ 1.632297
17 Cachi+ Cochimi+ North-Russian + Spanish_Canarias_IBS @ 1.645481
18 Cachi + Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North @ 1.651911
19 Colombian + Colombian + Karelian + Quechua_Coriell @ 1.654543
20 Colombian + Colombian + Karelian + Mayan @ 1.658146

Armando
6th November 2015, 07:31 PM
Ok I uploaded it to photobucket.


I didn't see anything different with the screenshot as far as the components. Although, I should've explained earlier that not all of the North_Atlantic will be Spanish because some of it will be from his mother.

Your father has a Q1a3a* 4th cousin match that was tested at 23andme. You could ask them to get a Y-DNA test at FTDNA to see if the STRs match.

Armando
6th November 2015, 07:38 PM
I don't really know if I'm actually Mexican, but all the people who match my father (and me) just happen to be Mexican (all fair skinned like me too).

You have Mexican ancestry. Your father would have matches from regions that aren't Mexico if you had ancestry from a different part of Latin America.

Armando
6th November 2015, 07:43 PM
MDLP K13 'Ultimate' Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Amerindian 37.73
2 ENF 25.74
3 WHG-UHG 14.81
4 ANE 10.97
5 Subsaharian 2.97
6 Caucas-Gedrosia 2.75
7 NearEast 2.47
8 Siberian 1.63


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Bolivian + Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North@ 1.168832
2 Bolivian + Colombian + Colombian + Karelian @ 1.231560
3 Bolivian_Cochabamba + Colombian +Colombian + Finland_North @ 1.297618
4 Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North + Totonac @ 1.366122
5 Bolivian + Colombian + Colombian + Finland_South@ 1.403362
6 Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North + Inga @ 1.425245
7 Bolivian_Cochabamba+Colombian+Colombian+Karelian@ 1.449937
8 Colombian+Colombian+Finland_North+Quechua_Coriell@ 1.458311
9 Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North + Huichol @ 1.499308
10 Bolivian + Colombian + Colombian + Finn @ 1.563803
11 Colombian+ Colombian + Finland_South + Huichol @ 1.576074
12 Colombian + Colombian + Inga + Karelian @ 1.589440
13 Colombian + Colombian + Karelian + Totonac @ 1.601709
14 Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North + Mayan @ 1.620071
15 Colombian + Colombian + Huichol + Karelian @ 1.629801
16 Colombian+ Colombian + Finland_South + Totonac @ 1.632297
17 Cachi+ Cochimi+ North-Russian + Spanish_Canarias_IBS @ 1.645481
18 Cachi + Colombian + Colombian + Finland_North @ 1.651911
19 Colombian + Colombian + Karelian + Quechua_Coriell @ 1.654543
20 Colombian + Colombian + Karelian + Mayan @ 1.658146

This calculator does a very poor job for people with known ancestry from Mexico. If you run all of the matches that you say are from Mexico through the calculator you will see weird results with it.

Dawn
6th November 2015, 08:07 PM
The closest genetic match he has is mixed Mexican and European. The family was surprised to know they had European genetics. So I think his father was probably mixed as well. But I won't know until I can get closer matches.

Armando
6th November 2015, 09:04 PM
The closest genetic match he has is mixed Mexican and European. The family was surprised to know they had European genetics. So I think his father was probably mixed as well. But I won't know until I can get closer matches.
All Mexicans have European genetics. It comes from Spanish ancestry. So of course your paternal grandfather had European ancestry and of course your matches have European ancestry. The Spaniards didn't leave after the conquest of Mexico. They stayed and had families continuing a constant existence of Spanish DNA in Mexico and they continued to immigrate throughout the past 500 years.

You have almost half the Amerindian DNA of your father and he would have almost half the Amerindian of his father. This is based in the fact that his half-sister does not have Amerindian in her DNA so the mother did not have Amerindian. The Siberian and Sub-Saharan would also be almost double. The difference would be mostly North_Atlantic and West_Med in different amounts.

If you were to get a test for your father at 23andme the European would have a lot of Iberian and Southern European and so would the Mexican matches.

Dawn
6th November 2015, 11:12 PM
So which Admixture utility on GEDmatch do you think would give me the best accurate picture of his ethnicity?

Armando
7th November 2015, 03:52 PM
I was going to say Eurogenes K13 because it is more closely matches your father's ancestry the best but I found that for some Mexicans it was giving Karitiana for the Native American ancestry. So I wouldn't use the Oracles from Gedmatch to determine ancestry. 23andme is what I have found to be the best but even then it's not as specific or accurate as I think you want it to be. There is only so much autosomal DNA can tell us. You already know your father has a lot of Native American DNA and he has matches in the 4th cousin range that have ancestry from Mexico but no matches from other parts of Latin America so that is as much as can be deduced without having a closer match.

James78
14th November 2015, 05:37 AM
If it hasn't been mentioned, the Q haplogroup actually originated in Asia. 17,000 years give or take apparently. A number of Europeans happen to have the epicanthic fold trait which is typically Asiatic origins [hence why a large number of Finns have it]. I have vague epicanthic folds due to my mother's European - Germanic & Nord - genetics; my mother has quite pronounced ones. Europeans are more Asian than many would like to know.

The reason why Q is associated with Native Americans is because an Asiatic culture settled North America long before Europeans ever thought it existed.


If your forefathers came from an isolated town / culture it is very like that the DNA has been matched to the Q haplogroup because that is the CLOSEST reference point they have. Simply put there is not enough people with the same DNA as your forefathers to warrant another "subculture" in the DNA process.


This happened with my grandmother.

My grandmother [father's mother] is related to the U6 haplogroup, which is said to be predominantly African. My grandmother is Irish. She comes from an old Irish familial clan, extremely old because the history extends many, many centuries. According to other DNA sites my % of African is minimal [0.1%, highest was 0.2%]. Her being African is about as likely as my skin being green.

However, because her DNA is much older (the U6 most likely comes from the subculture found in Iberia as most of her relatives don't burn in the sun, they tan... so this haplogroup would have come from extremely old invaders of Ireland) than the referenced "Irish" being used on almost every single DNA site she scores very little Irish. On the reverse Iberian / Spanish % is quite high and distant per gedmatch supporting the ancient Iberian influx.