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tralfaz
6th July 2013, 08:21 PM
Hi - I transferred Ancestry.com DNA results over to FamilyTreeDNA and the Population Finder gave me a result of:

Continent (Subcontinent) Population Percentage Margin of Error
Middle East (Jewish) Jewish 100.00% ±0.01%

At Ancestry.com I got:

Southern European
36%
Middle Eastern
35%
Persian/Turkish/Caucasus
28%
Uncertain
1%

Ethnically, I am Greek. Why the 100% Jewish result with such a small margin of error? I've researched regarding how Population Finder works, but found nothing related to Greeks, and wondered if we shared similar DNA.

If anyone can help, I would appreciate it!
Thanks!

mixedkid
7th July 2013, 10:45 PM
Offhand, I would guess that your Ancestry results are far more accurate. (I've tested with FTDNA, Ancestry, and 23 and Me.) At least from our family's experience here (including my elderly parents) 23 and Me gives the most accurate ancestry results, then Ancestry and then FTDNA.

If you have no known Jewish ancestry on either side of the family -- and are most definitely associated historically with Greek people, populations associated with Greece should be present. I would also pay close attention to the ethnic mix of your distant cousin matches.

Táltos
7th July 2013, 11:29 PM
tralfaz unfortunately Population Finder is awful, and in my humble opinion seems to be the worst of them on the market. Hopefully you have been able to upload to Gedmatch? I know for now they are on hold again for taking new uploads because they have been swamped. They have excellent admixture tools there.

Population Finder here has no Greek reference population. They only have Romania for Southeast Europe. For Southern Europe they have Tuscan, Italian, and Sardinia. Their Tuscan and Italian samples read more as a Northern Italian instead of Southern Italian. Many Southern Italians and Sicilians will show Middle Eastern results too. It is because of old migration patterns to the area.

Are your actual matches on both sites showing anyone with Greek ancestry? If not maybe Italian, Albanian, Malta, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Turkey or Cyprus? mixedkid is correct about checking out your matches ethnic mix. My mom is half Southern Italian/Albanian, and we both get matches that are Greek.

brookes
8th July 2013, 11:16 AM
My BF's grandmother is (as far as I can tell at this juncture) 100% Sicilian - I have traced her ancestry back to the mid-1700s in Sicily - and Population Finder gave her 86% Jewish, 12% "Europe" (Orcadian, Spanish, Tuscan, French). Now, given the history of Sicily, it's entirely possible and in fact somewhat likely that she has Turkish, Greek, North African and/or Norman French in her background, but I find that high a percentage of Jewish to be rather unlikely. She doesn't have many matches for FF but the ones she does have are largely from Malta or Sicily or have no country listed but are clearly Italian surnames. If she were actually Jewish, wouldn't she have a gazillion matches due to the endogamy? Or does that only apply to Ashkenazim? I guess in theory she could be Sephardic in the way distant past.

I have tried various Admix tools at Gedmatch but many of them are also giving me Jewish - for example Dodecad v3 gives her the following breakdown (top percentages only):

# Population Percent
1 Mediterranean 35.66
2 West_Asian 26.05
3 West_European 18.3
4 Southwest_Asian 10.08
5 Northwest_African 4.56

And the Oracle seems to think her percentages are closest to Ashkenazi Jewish, with Sicilian/Italian not even entering the picture until the fourth result:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 3.95
2 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 4.8
3 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 7.34
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 9.32
5 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.46
6 Sicilian (Dodecad) 11.8
7 S_Italian (Dodecad) 12.03
8 O_Italian (Dodecad) 12.16

Interested to see how the thread interprets the above. I am still waiting for my BF's results. He is half Greek/Turkish on his mother's side, so that should be interesting.

JuanCarlos
8th July 2013, 07:23 PM
No, she's not AJ at all. It's just that Sicilians seem to mirror Jewish people, genetically speaking. The matches she gets clearly point to her heritage. If she had an actual AJ %, she would have hundreds of Jewish matches.

KenWolf
9th July 2013, 01:04 PM
@Brooks
Just for comparison you might want to run her kit through the Eurogenes project using the JTest calculator with Oracle which is primarily used for testing Ashkenazi ancestry. You might find that interesting.

KenWolf
9th July 2013, 02:39 PM
@Brookes
If you haven't already, you might try running the Admix Eurogenes project test @ Gedmatch. Select Oracle and J-Test as the calculator. You might find it interesting and it may help you to dig deeper and find out what populations are being used.
If you want to compare the kit in question to mine M081145. I am 50% Ashkenazi and my results may give you some base line for comparison

brookes
10th July 2013, 02:53 PM
@Brookes
If you haven't already, you might try running the Admix Eurogenes project test @ Gedmatch. Select Oracle and J-Test as the calculator. You might find it interesting and it may help you to dig deeper and find out what populations are being used.
If you want to compare the kit in question to mine M081145. I am 50% Ashkenazi and my results may give you some base line for comparison

Hey Ken,

Great idea. I think I had already done this at some point, but I didn't save the results, so I ran it again.

Here's what Jtest Oracle-x gave for her Admix Results:

# Population Percent
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 2.81
2 EAST_EURO 1.70
3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.43
4 ATLANTIC 10.25
5 WEST_MED 19.21
6 ASHKENAZI 5.97
7 EAST_MED 30.42
8 WEST_ASIAN 9.76
9 MIDDLE_EASTERN 8.36
10 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.83
11 EAST_AFRICAN 0.62
12 EAST_ASIAN 0.00
13 SIBERIAN 0.00
14 WEST_AFRICAN 0.64


Pct. Calc. Option 2

1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 60.21%
2 Druze 11.16%
3 Sardinian 8.31%
4 PT 5.98%
5 Tuscan 5.32%
6 GR 3.80%
7 Samaritan 2.99%
8 IR 2.10%
9 Assyrian 0.12%
10 North_Italian 0.00%

This seems by far the closest any of the calculators have gotten. Does anyone know what PT and IR stand for?

brookes
10th July 2013, 03:01 PM
Compare that JTest Oracle-X result to that of my brother-in-law, with known Ashkenazi ancestry of about 75%, the remainder being English & Belgian:

Admix Results:
# Population Percent
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 6.19
2 EAST_EURO 2.75
3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 13.01
4 ATLANTIC 14.79
5 WEST_MED 8.33
6 ASHKENAZI 23.25
7 EAST_MED 20.17
8 WEST_ASIAN 5.97
9 MIDDLE_EASTERN 4.40
10 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.00
11 EAST_AFRICAN 0.14
12 EAST_ASIAN 0.96
13 SIBERIAN 0.04
14 WEST_AFRICAN 0.00


Pct. Calc. Option 2
1 AJ 57.12%
2 Scottish 15.67%
3 Cornish 11.10%
4 Tuscan 9.36%
5 Druze 6.55%
6 Mandean 0.15%
7 GR 0.04%
8 Assyrian 0.00%
9 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 0.00%
10 Kurdish 0.00%

I assume AJ stands for Ashkenazi Jewish. It's underestimating the percentage of Ashkenazi for him significantly. What's GR stand for, does anyone know? I'm going to try Eurotest on both BiL and BF's gm and see what it says.

ETA: Ken I just ran JTest on yours and it also under-represents your AJ percentage, 30% as opposed to your known 50% ancestry. So maybe this is normal.

tralfaz
10th July 2013, 03:31 PM
Offhand, I would guess that your Ancestry results are far more accurate. (I've tested with FTDNA, Ancestry, and 23 and Me.) At least from our family's experience here (including my elderly parents) 23 and Me gives the most accurate ancestry results, then Ancestry and then FTDNA.

If you have no known Jewish ancestry on either side of the family -- and are most definitely associated historically with Greek people, populations associated with Greece should be present. I would also pay close attention to the ethnic mix of your distant cousin matches.

Thank you for your reply. I know of a great-grandmother with a maiden name of Abrahams - that's my only possibility that there is some Jewish ancestry. i was hoping to determine if this Jewish ancestry was a true possibility. The Ancestry.com test said a good percentage was "middle eastern", but nothing more specific. Thanks - I may try 23 and Me.

tralfaz
10th July 2013, 03:38 PM
tralfaz unfortunately Population Finder is awful, and in my humble opinion seems to be the worst of them on the market. Hopefully you have been able to upload to Gedmatch? I know for now they are on hold again for taking new uploads because they have been swamped. They have excellent admixture tools there.

Population Finder here has no Greek reference population. They only have Romania for Southeast Europe. For Southern Europe they have Tuscan, Italian, and Sardinia. Their Tuscan and Italian samples read more as a Northern Italian instead of Southern Italian. Many Southern Italians and Sicilians will show Middle Eastern results too. It is because of old migration patterns to the area.

Are your actual matches on both sites showing anyone with Greek ancestry? If not maybe Italian, Albanian, Malta, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Turkey or Cyprus? mixedkid is correct about checking out your matches ethnic mix. My mom is half Southern Italian/Albanian, and we both get matches that are Greek.

I have registered with GedMatch but was unable to upload, as they are indeed swamped. I was only given 3 matches (all Remote Cousin) here at FamilyTreeDNA and they show no Greek, Jewish, Italian, Albanian, or anything, other than Irish, English and Croatian - none of which fit my

Southern European
36%
Middle Eastern
35%
Persian/Turkish/Caucasus
28%
Uncertain
1%

I'm not really having much luck with FamilyTreeDNA, unfortunately.

KenWolf
10th July 2013, 03:39 PM
@Brookes

Run my kit again and when completed click "Oracle" and scroll down to Mixed Population Sharing. The first entry #1 shows 50% AJ and 50% NL (Netherlands).
I think other populations get into the act also, such as West-Med, East-Med.

If you add those percentages to the Ashkenazi then you will get about 50%.

Oh, to answer your country abbreviations:
PT = Portugal
IR = Iran
GR = Greece

taken from: http://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/ctycodes.htm#.Ud3ERTuzc2w

MMaddi
10th July 2013, 03:46 PM
Hey Ken,

Great idea. I think I had already done this at some point, but I didn't save the results, so I ran it again.

Here's what Jtest Oracle-x gave for her Admix Results:

# Population Percent
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 2.81
2 EAST_EURO 1.70
3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.43
4 ATLANTIC 10.25
5 WEST_MED 19.21
6 ASHKENAZI 5.97
7 EAST_MED 30.42
8 WEST_ASIAN 9.76
9 MIDDLE_EASTERN 8.36
10 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.83
11 EAST_AFRICAN 0.62
12 EAST_ASIAN 0.00
13 SIBERIAN 0.00
14 WEST_AFRICAN 0.64


Pct. Calc. Option 2

1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 60.21%
2 Druze 11.16%
3 Sardinian 8.31%
4 PT 5.98%
5 Tuscan 5.32%
6 GR 3.80%
7 Samaritan 2.99%
8 IR 2.10%
9 Assyrian 0.12%
10 North_Italian 0.00%

This seems by far the closest any of the calculators have gotten. Does anyone know what PT and IR stand for?

PT is Portugal and, I believe, IR is Iran.

Regarding the AJ percentages in Jtest, they're somewhat misleading. Most northern Europeans get a few percent and Sicilians/southern Italians get 5-10%. It seems as if that's significant, but it's not indicative of Ashkenazi ancestry.

brookes
10th July 2013, 04:37 PM
PT is Portugal and, I believe, IR is Iran.

Regarding the AJ percentages in Jtest, they're somewhat misleading. Most northern Europeans get a few percent and Sicilians/southern Italians get 5-10%. It seems as if that's significant, but it's not indicative of Ashkenazi ancestry.

Yes, my mother (100% colonial with zero Jewish ancestry AFAIK) got 2.29% AJ:

Populations:
0 Unable to determine 0.02%
1 English 44.81%
2 NL 16.33%
3 Orcadian 8.48%
4 DK 8.19%
5 IE 6.89%
6 Kalash 6.38%
7 NO 6.20%
8 FR 1.76%
9 Lezgin 0.94%
10 Komi 0.01%

I assume NL is Netherlands, IE is Ireland and FR is French. What are DK, NO, Kalash, Lezgin, and Komi?

JeffWexler
10th July 2013, 05:37 PM
It's my understanding that people who are fully Ashkenazi will have an Ashkenazi percentage of 25% to 35%. Going back to the early 19th century, my ancestors were all Ashkenazi. Here are my Jtest results:

Admix Results
# Population Percent
1 ASHKENAZI 31.91
2 EAST_MED 22.15
3 WEST_MED 11.49
4 MIDDLE_EASTERN 10.08
5 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 7.23
6 WEST_ASIAN 5.84
7 ATLANTIC 4.03
8 EAST_EURO 3.42
9 SOUTH_BALTIC 2.05
10 SIBERIAN 1.04
11 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.75

Single Population Sharing
# Population (source) Distance
1 AJ 5.02
2 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 24.7
3 GR 26.16
4 Tuscan 28.57
5 North_Italian 31.5
6 RO 31.85
7 TR 32.63
8 Serbian 33.64
9 IQ 33.87
10 Samaritan 34.33
11 Mandean 34.59
12 PT 34.65
13 Assyrian 34.66
14 Armenian 35.47
15 Moroccan 35.85
16 Algerian 36.17
17 Kurdish 36.44
18 ES 36.48
19 IR 36.87
20 Druze 36.9

With a few exceptions, most of my closely matching populations cluster along the shores of the Mediterranean. I suspect that this may reflect shared ancestry among these population groups going back as far as the Roman Empire; according to some estimates, 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish at some point in time.

In order to test the accuracy of a Jtest prediction of Ashkenazi ancestry, it may be possible to use GEDmatch's chromosome painting function to identify the segments deemed by Jtest to be Ashkenazi, then to use GEDmatch's "Find people who match with you on a specific segment function" to see whether you have substantial matches with people on those segments.

Jeff Wexler

MMaddi
10th July 2013, 06:45 PM
With a few exceptions, most of my closely matching populations cluster along the shores of the Mediterranean. I suspect that this may reflect shared ancestry among these population groups going back as far as the Roman Empire; according to some estimates, 10% of the Roman Empire was Jewish at some point in time.



That's not even going back far enough. The major reason that admixture tools have problems distinguishing Near Eastern, Jewish, Greek and Italian populations is due to the Neolithic migrations, several thousand years ago, into the Balkans and southern Italy.

Of course, there are later times where Near Eastern/Jewish populations mixed with Greek and Italian populations. One example is the time of the Roman Empire, as you mentioned. Also, there is the Muslim rule, which included Jews, in Sicily in the Middle Ages. But the major reason for the close connections among these populations is the Neolithic migrations.

brookes
11th July 2013, 05:40 PM
Here are the EUTest results for the BF's grandmother:

Admix Results:
# Population Percent
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 2.93
2 EAST_EURO 2.05
3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.79
4 ATLANTIC 11.06
5 WEST_MED 19.94
6 EAST_MED 31.93
7 WEST_ASIAN 10.66
8 MIDDLE_EASTERN 9.41
9 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.92
10 EAST_AFRICAN 0.68
11 EAST_ASIAN 0.00
12 SIBERIAN 0.00
13 WEST_AFRICAN 0.64


Pct. Calc. Option 2
1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 69.63%
2 Druze 9.16%
3 Sardinian 8.45%
4 Tuscan 5.64%
5 GR 4.87%
6 IR 1.10%
7 South_Indian 1.10%
8 Serbian 0.03%
9 AJ 0.00%
10 RO 0.00%

As you can see, she gets zero AJ on this one. I'm confused as to why Oracle even includes AJ when this calc is supposed to be showing what the breakdown would be if AJ was not included. I also can't see where exactly that 6% AJ from JTest went.

brookes
11th July 2013, 07:03 PM
OK one more, I realize this may be getting somewhat OT since she is neither known Greek nor at all Jewish, but when I ran the Eutest again in regular "Oracle" mode (not Oracle-X which I had been choosing), I see the Mixed Mode Population Sharing, which says:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.5% South_Italian_&_Sicilian + 4.5% Sardinian @ 3.07
2 97.6% South_Italian_&_Sicilian + 2.4% Druze @ 3.51
3 89.7% South_Italian_&_Sicilian + 10.3% GR @ 3.52
4 99.5% South_Italian_&_Sicilian + 0.5% South_Indian @ 3.54

Sardinian is a definite possibility - she has the surname "Sardegna" in her ancestry, which I am guessing is Sardinian in origin. Not sure about Druze or South Indian, but some Greek is also certainly possible given Sicily's history.

vinnie
11th July 2013, 08:16 PM
Brookes, the populations she matches are her closest matches for the reference populations used for that tool. Her results do not necessarily mean that she has Sardinian ancestry; maybe she does, but maybe she doesn't. The best way to approach this is to try all the tools that are primarily designed for European populations (based on her known ancestry) and see what patterns emerge. (There's at least one tool that is predominantly for African ancestry that will give you results as well, but that will just show how closely she matches the African reference populations used in that tool; it doesn't mean that she has sub-Saharan ancestry.)

Táltos
11th July 2013, 10:49 PM
tralfaz only having 3 matches just means that people of your ancestry or your part of the world have not tested as much. People that are full Italian or Sicilian (though I know you are Greek) many times are known to have only a few matches, because their populations are underrepresented in the database. Your Croatian match is getting close to your country, and you guys might have a common Greek ancestor, or even vise verse, or possibly a common ancestor from even another part of the Balkans or Mediterranean.

Do you know if your Irish or English matches actually live in Ireland and England for generations? Or are they from the U.S.A., or Australia, countries that are melting pots. If so this might leave open the possibility that they have a Greek or an Italian ancestor in their background.

I have registered with GedMatch but was unable to upload, as they are indeed swamped. I was only given 3 matches (all Remote Cousin) here at FamilyTreeDNA and they show no Greek, Jewish, Italian, Albanian, or anything, other than Irish, English and Croatian - none of which fit my

Southern European
36%
Middle Eastern
35%
Persian/Turkish/Caucasus
28%
Uncertain
1%

I'm not really having much luck with FamilyTreeDNA, unfortunately.

Táltos
12th July 2013, 09:51 AM
Here are the EUTest results for the BF's grandmother:

Admix Results:
# Population Percent
1 SOUTH_BALTIC 2.93
2 EAST_EURO 2.05
3 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 9.79
4 ATLANTIC 11.06
5 WEST_MED 19.94
6 EAST_MED 31.93
7 WEST_ASIAN 10.66
8 MIDDLE_EASTERN 9.41
9 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.92
10 EAST_AFRICAN 0.68
11 EAST_ASIAN 0.00
12 SIBERIAN 0.00
13 WEST_AFRICAN 0.64


Pct. Calc. Option 2
1 South_Italian_&_Sicilian 69.63%
2 Druze 9.16%
3 Sardinian 8.45%
4 Tuscan 5.64%
5 GR 4.87%
6 IR 1.10%
7 South_Indian 1.10%
8 Serbian 0.03%
9 AJ 0.00%
10 RO 0.00%

As you can see, she gets zero AJ on this one. I'm confused as to why Oracle even includes AJ when this calc is supposed to be showing what the breakdown would be if AJ was not included. I also can't see where exactly that 6% AJ from JTest went.

brookes looking at the results side by side will help you see where the JTest results went. It is hard to notice because other groups only move up small amounts as they are spread through more than a few of them. I will try to post it here. Hopefully I can make it look readable.
Jtest - EUTest
South Baltic 2.81 - 2.93
East Euro 1.70 - 2.05
N. Central Eur 9.4 - 9.79
Atlantic 10.25 - 11.06
West Med 19.21 - 19.94
Ashkenazi 5.97 -
East Med 30.42 - 31.93
West Asian 9.76 - 10.66
Middle East 8.36 - 9.41
S. Asian 0.83 - 0.92
E. African 0.62 - 0.68
E. Asian 0.00 - 0.00
Siberian 0.00 - 0.00
W. African 0.64 - 0.64

So by looking at this, populations that look like they went up at least one point are East Med, and Middle Eastern, the rest pushed up in smaller amounts than whole points. I believe that the Ashkenazi was supposed to be found under the East Med, West Asian, and Middle Eastern components of the EUTest. As to why they included the Ashkenazi in the Oracles of the EUTest, I had just figured because it is one of the reference populations that they use on regular basis. It shows up in one of my "regular" Oracle modes on the EUTest for me too. Though I'm never sure if it is due to my Southern Italian ancestry, or my discovery through DNA testing that I do have some Jewish ancestry, though it is very far back in time.

You also might want to read this old thread back on page 16 when the JTest first came out. :) http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=31690

brookes
30th August 2013, 12:58 AM
Thank you Taltos, that was very helpful. I just got my BF's Population Finder results, and it shows him as 97% Middle Eastern/Jewish, when in fact he is half Sicilian and half Greek/Turkish. So now I can be on topic on this thread! (His actual FF results are not in yet, so I can't upload to Gedmatch. Rest assured I will do so as soon as humanly possible!)

marietta
30th August 2013, 09:00 PM
You may need to use goggle chrome.

dna-explained.com/2013/08/30/mexican-womens-mitochrondrial-dna-primarily-native-American/

marietta
30th August 2013, 09:15 PM
Let me try that again. When I originally put in http:// something weird happened.




http://dna-explained.com/2013/08/30/mexican-womens-mitochondrial-dna-primarily-native-american/

Táltos
31st August 2013, 10:29 AM
Thank you Taltos, that was very helpful. I just got my BF's Population Finder results, and it shows him as 97% Middle Eastern/Jewish, when in fact he is half Sicilian and half Greek/Turkish. So now I can be on topic on this thread! (His actual FF results are not in yet, so I can't upload to Gedmatch. Rest assured I will do so as soon as humanly possible!)
Your welcome! :) Let us know what Gedmatch calculators show for him when you can.